Mia Fileman 0:05
Life's too short for crap marketing. The Got Marketing? Podcast is for marketers, business owners and entrepreneurs who want marketing that's fun, accessible and meaningful. Join me, Mia Fileman for inspired chats with my favorite marketing insiders about marketing that works, campaigns that inspire and the fads, fakery and false prophets to avoid.
Hello, friend, and welcome back to the Got Marketing Show. I have a ripper episode planned for you today. We are going to talk about creating customer avatars. We're going to talk about the coaching industry. And we're going to talk about the gurus.
Penny Locaso 0:44
I help people make shifts, that they’ve come to the realization that they cannot make on their own. So many people come to me and say they’ve lost their spark. What we do is we define what that spark would look like. Are you that woman who looks in the mirror and no longer recognises who she is, or says my whole life has been spent making others happy, and fulfilling shoulds, rather than what I really want.
Mia Fileman 1:06
That was Penny Locaso. She is a transformational coach and therapist. Welcome to Got Marketing? Penny!
Penny Locaso 1:13
Oh, Mia, it's a joy to be here. I can't wait to have this conversation. It's such a topic that I'm passionate about. All three.
Mia Fileman 1:21
Yeah. Why? Tell me why is that?
Penny Locaso 1:25
Well, the customer avatar stuff I'm really passionate about because it completely changed how I create in my business. And it completely changed the relationship that I cultivated with followers and subscribers in my business to the point where they now continually say to me things like I read your stuff, and I feel like you're in my head. And like that is like the greatest gift in terms of oh my gosh, you know, I know my audience.
Mia Fileman 1:52
So true. So good. All right, we'll get to that. First, how does it feel to be a coach at a time when Coach is almost like a dirty word?
Penny Locaso 2:05
Oh, do you know it took me six and a half years to call myself a coach for that exact reason. Because I actually felt in calling myself that I was diluting the value of what I can deliver. But I did some work and I overcame it. And the thing is, I think. I mean, you would know this in the work that you do but equally in I'm sure you've been coached yourself, right. That a coach can completely transform you and your business if it's the right person. So there are amazing coaches out there. I've had some brilliant ones. The problem with coaching, I think, is that there's no sort of, I'm not a fan of regulating bodies, but I honestly think it's an industry that needs some sort of regulation. Because it's just like the default for anyone who leaves, I would say the professional world and decides that they want to start their own business. And so therefore they go into it. And so there's a lot of people out there that just aren't qualified for anything. Other than I worked in corporate and I led a few people.
Mia Fileman 3:07
Or it worked for me and my story. This was my story. And so it will work for you if you also invest with me.
Penny Locaso 3:17
Yeah. And I think what's interesting about that, one of the things I consistently send to people, whether they work with me or not, I don't care. I've got like this little checklist, which is how to find the right coach for you and make sure that what you're investing in is quality because for me, I want people to get what they need and get value for their money. And I think a lot of people don't know what questions to ask to actually get someone that's not going to rip them offline because a lot of people are charging a lot of money and is actually going to deliver what they say.
Mia Fileman 3:44
Okay, so take us through that. That's amazing. How can you help people avoid these cult coaches, gurus, and actually do some due diligence about finding someone that is the right fit. Because you’re right Penny. You know, every athlete in the world has a coach. You know, some of the world's most successful business owners also have coaches. Interestingly, I don't.
Penny Locaso
You've never had one?
Mia Fileman
I've never had a business coach. I've never had a business coach. I don't have one now. I'm just so mortally afraid. And I just don't feel like there is one person that can help me in all the different areas of my business and so I take a peer coaching approach where I have a few different really close friends.
Penny Locaso 4:30
Yeah
Mia Fileman
and we coach each other but no money changes hands.
Penny Locaso 4:35
Oh, that's amazing. So you do have coaches, you've just developed a barter system which is a brilliant way. I've done a lot of that myself. But I think you've touched on two really interesting things. One is, coaches are a bit like friends, right? It's a reason or a season or they say a lifetime. I think coaches are a reason or a season. I don't think that you're ever going to have one coach for your whole life, be it a life shift, be it your business, whatever it is, I've had different coaches for the different stages and the different skills I've needed to develop at different times. And I mean, you've been one of that with Campaign Classroom, right. So that would be an example of that.
So I think it's important to know that you're not going to get someone that's a one size fits all in terms of the due diligence. And I'm extremely passionate about this, because I just don't want people spending money on things that they don't get value out of. So the first thing I say is, you’ve just said it. Go out to peer network. Ask people. Tell people, this is what I'm looking for, like, be very clear on what it is that you want from a coach. I always say to people, what are your expectations of me as a coach? And equally, what are the results, like what is going to make you feel like this investment was worthwhile. So get clear on what the results are that you want? I think that's the first point. Go out to your network and say, I'm looking for a coach, this is the result that I'm looking for. Do you know anyone? Because word of mouth is the most powerful thing to do.
When you then you're interviewing these coaches like a job interview, right? You want to sit there, I want to, I want to look them in the eye, if that's on Zoom, but equally, I want to ask them questions, I want to ask them, how will they support me in delivering those results? I want to ask them what credentials they have as a coach. So other than life experience, what qualifications and what proven evidence-based empirically proven methodologies do you use to support me in terms of tools and resources in this process. And then the third thing I would say is don't just trust testimonials that are sent to you in print form, right? I mean, I have loads of testimonials, I share them in print form, that's fine. But the one thing I consistently offer to anyone that comes to me is, I will provide you with a list of phone numbers of people, you tell me the sort of change you want to make. And I can give you a list of two or three people that will talk to you about their experience with me. So speak to these people, like if you're spending some people spend, you know, like $10,000, you know, on a coach, I want to make sure that other people have gotten what they paid for. So that's kind of the checklist.
Mia Fileman 7:09
What about people who say, oh, the coach doesn't invite me to have one on one interviews with her or him, I don't have that option to ask them direct questions.
Penny Locaso 7:21
Then that is not the right coach for you.
Mia Fileman
Exactly.
Penny Locaso
I wouldn't work with someone, like paying that sort of money, if I couldn't do all of those things that I've just said to you. Because I could not trust my intuition. Like my intuition would be saying to me, this is a red flag.
Mia Fileman 7:39
I completely agree. Our mutual friend Leticia Andrac has another layer, which is to go on to make sure that they have a LinkedIn profile and go and read their LinkedIn profile, because it's essentially like a CV, and she's like, it's a massive red flag for me if they don't have LinkedIn. And it's just no, do you disagree?
Penny Locaso 7:59
Well it's funny, you know, I have a very big following on LinkedIn. And, you know, as someone who's ex corporate, I've been there for a long time. There's a lot of people on LinkedIn, with CVs that don't match their credentials. I think of it that's a bit like a CV, you know, like, how many people I interviewed when I worked in corporate because I had large teams. And, you know, I always found the people that looked great on paper were never the best performers. You know, the people that were the best performers, were the ones that came through the backdoor, that couldn't sell themselves as well. But damn, when they got in there, they worked hard. Yeah. That's why I say don't believe just like the written testimonial, like, it's a great thing to have as a first step. But I want to talk to people, I still think there's a lot of facade on LinkedIn, LinkedIn is great at people on there wearing masks.
Mia Fileman 8:43
It’s true. That is such a good point. Okay, so what does a transformational coach do? What does that mean?
Penny Locaso 8:48
Hmm. So I struggled to find the right word to describe what I do. But basically, I help people make shifts they've longed to make, that they've come to the realization that they cannot make on their own. And so I talk into context. So that can either be it's like, so many people come to me and say, I've lost my spark. So they've either lost their spark sort of in their life, or they've lost this spark in their business. And so what we do is we're like, you know, what we do is we define what that spark would look like. So do you want to spark yourself like, do you need to? Are you that woman that you know, looks in the mirror and no longer recognizes who she is? Or says, you know, I, I woke up and it's like, I'm 45 and I'm sitting here going, this is not the life that I thought I would have. And I kind of feel like I landed here. And not like I got here by design, but I was told to do all these things and then I would arrive at this magical place of happiness and I'm sitting here miserable feeling like you know, my whole life has been spent making others happy and fulfilling shoulds rather than what I really want.
And then the other one is I kind of call it spark your biz, so spark your business and so what what I find is a lot A lot of ex-professionals come to me because they've just started their business. And they're sitting there floundering, they're like, they don't know how to build the fundamental foundations, which we're going to talk about one today, which is a customer avatar. So they build a product, they put it out into the world and they wonder why no one buys it. And they spent all of this time and energy that's hugely valuable on something that doesn't deliver the revenue that they anticipated. So I help those women sort of just set the foundations up for their business to be able to then look at the growth beyond that.
Mia Fileman 10:31
Yeah and you've gotten to know your customers incredibly well. What does that look like for you, you've embarked on this process?
Penny Locaso 10:39
Oh, so there was a process, again, that a coach bought being into and I brought her in, to help me better understand my customers so that I could speak to them more clearly. Because I think the biggest insight around customers and customer insight is that we get very good, especially if we've come from a professional background at taking what they say, and using our own words to make it sound more sophisticated. And I would say that is probably the biggest mistake you can make. That's what I used to do, because people who say, Oh, you're really good with words, but they were my words, they weren't the words of my customers. So the customer avatar process is what completely changed all of that. And so again, so many clients I work with, when I say to them, we're going to go and we're going to do research, you got to go out there and do eight to 10, depth interviews and hour each, with a consistent set of questions. I want you to capture every word those people say in a Google form, and do a you know, an OtterAI transcript as you do it, so that you've got specifically their words. And then we're going to analyze all that. And we're going to pull out the themes. And we're going to build this profile, as it is, a real human. We're going to give her or him a name. And we're going to talk about where they hang out what they do, how they feel what they talk to their partner about what keeps them awake at night. So we know these people intimately. But so many people say to me, oh, but I've already I've already done that. And when you unpack what that what that done, that means it's like, oh, but I know my customer, because I've spent hours with them. You do but you don't know their words. And what I find is so many of us don't truly know, the real problem that these people are coming to you to solve because people are not buying your time they are buying a transformation, they are buying a shift from I want to move from this to this so that I can this.
Mia Fileman 12:28
That is so true. I love everything that you said, I've like written it down. So can you give me a tangible example of how something someone has said to you in one of these in depth interviews has ended up in your marketing?
Penny Locaso 12:50
Oh. So direct quotes are gold, because basically they are saying to you, you know, here is the problem. And I'll guarantee if someone has given you that direct quote, There is like a million other people out there feeling the same way. So one of the favorite quotes I love is, I keep telling myself, this is women, right? And my avatar’s name is Kelly. And so Kelly would say, I keep telling myself when it's all done, then I'll make time for me. But the reality is, it's never all done, right? And all I keep doing is moving myself and my dreams to the bottom of my to-do list. So Kelly's a people pleasing perfectionist, but that is a direct quote. For example, at the moment, we're testing that on Instagram advertising, we've got four other ads. That's the only direct quote we've used, and it's the one that's performing highest. Hmm,
Mia Fileman 13:38
Perfect example. Love that. So good. And how many avatars do you have? Do you have Kelly and a few others or for you and your business? Do you just because that's a common question I'm asked is how many audience personas do I need to have?
Penny Locaso 13:51
So I would say Kelly is the core. But then there's variations of Kelly based on the life stage that she's in. Right. So there's Kelly the professional. And then there's Kelly, the professional, like the corporate professional that's left and started her own business. So she's the same woman. She's just on a slightly different journey.
Mia Fileman 14:14
Okay, great. Yeah. So it's like a continuum of Kelly. So like Kelly at that particular life stage before she started her business, or before she had children, and so forth.
Penny Locaso 14:25
And that's me, right? Because it might be different for different people. The only thing I would say about that, Mia, because it's a really good question. You can have more than one avatar, right? I would say I probably have three, like three variations of Kelly. Like there's mum Kelly. There's professional Kelly, that does like most and Kelly professional, with kids, professional without kids. And then there's business Kelly, right. But what I would say to a lot of people, I think people try and be all things to all people and again, this is like when you foundations, you know they're setting up business and it's like, oh, I don't want to go too narrow because I might miss opportunities, but I would say start with one avatar and make sure you've nailed it. Like make sure people are saying to you, oh my god that resonates so fully before you then start building other avatars.
Mia Fileman 15:10
I agree completely what people don't understand is that the more, and I use slightly different language to you, you know, an avatars is an audience persona, or even a customer audience segment, the more that you have, you need to change everything for them, the messaging needs to change, potentially the visuals, the price might need to change for them based on the deliverables, you might need to use different marketing channels to reach those customer audience segments. If you've got a corporate customer and a non-corporate customer, they’re different, very, very different. So don't get excited creating six customer avatars because it sounds like fun. That's essentially six different marketing strategies that you need.
Penny Locaso 15:54
And that's a hell of a lot of work. And I think it dilutes again, most of us, you know, we're small business owners, you know, we're not sort of flushed in resources like I was when I was in my professional career. And so therefore, it's like what am I, you know, I always think, narrow and deep. For me, that's what's worked right. narrow and deep. Like, I know, Kelly, I know, like, I know, Kelly, because I was Kelly. Right. And so narrow and deep is what has served me I've gone broad, it's where I started. And it never had the impact that the work that I'm now doing is happening.
Mia Fileman 16:29
Yeah right. I think it's important to note that like you were Kelly, and that's useful to you. But that doesn't necessarily mean that everybody is you. So make sure you do what you're saying, and go and have those eight to 10 deep interviews to make sure that there are other people like you, we are not our target audience, necessarily.
Penny Locaso 16:54
And you pick up on a really good point, because the other thing was: I was Kelly, but I was her 10 years ago. And there is something by the nature of you know, your journey of evolution. That means that even though you remember the stories, there's a lot of stuff that you forget in terms of how you felt, and what was going through your head at that time. Do you know what I mean? So there does become a level of disconnection for a time.
Mia Fileman 17:17
That's very, very, very true. And like, we need to validate that our reality is other people's reality. It's, you know, because we're living it and we're in it, we're like, surely everyone else is feeling the exact same way that I am. And like more than likely they are but they also may not be and you don't know until you actually pick up the phone and start talking to people, right.
Penny Locaso 17:40
And I think the biggest red flag and I hear this all the time, and then I make my clients do it. And they're like, oh my god, I had no idea is when people say we are no, no, but I'm different. I really know my customers. I've not done the research, but I really like if you're saying that I would say that's your red flag saying you need to do your customer avatar. Absolutely. You need to do your research.
Mia Fileman 18:00
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So what to you, Penny makes a good coach? What is a coach? Like how are they different to a strategist or a mentor or a doula like what is a coach and what makes a good coach?
Penny Locaso 18:58
So I always say I have the best job in the world, because my job is to hold people accountable to realizing their dreams, and to provide them with the support structure, the wisdom, you know, through time and through skills, and like tools, resources, and skill building, that's going to enable them to fast track their journey. That's kind of how I work. So I've made the mistakes. I've done this stuff 100 times over with others. And now I can help you shortcut the process. It's equally someone that helps you do the things that you've tried to do on your own, but you're unable to, you know, because so that's the thing, I'm not gonna go and get a coach, if I can do this stuff for myself, like you, for example, in your program, you taught me how to run campaigns for myself, right? So I love that if I do my job well, ideally, I'm teaching my clients how to navigate uncertainty from a place of intention and meaning and giving them the skills and the resources to do that. So that whenever they're presented with these life shifting moments, again, they do have the skills to be able to do this stuff for themselves.
And a good coach, here's the thing, right? I say two things about a good coach, a good coach is not going to change you, they're not going to fix you, a good coach will help you return to what I call your essence. Because what I find is, and we hear this, you have all of the answers within you, but the layers of should and expectation that society put on us, they are like dense layers that basically hide our light, hide the truth, or the, you know, the authenticity of what we want to be. Who we were born to be, before all that crap was stuck on us. So, so much of what I do is helping people return to who they were like, who they always felt they were, but were too afraid to be. And I had another point, but it's completely dropped out of my mind.
Mia Fileman 20:51
I think it'll come back for sure. And what do you think makes for not a good coach?
Penny Locaso 20:56
Uh huh. Look, I don't know, I have to challenge my belief system all the time, I think a good coach has to give you structure. Because what I see in so many of these people is they have, they come to me because they longed to make a shift. They know things aren't working. And they haven't been able to do it on their own. So they haven't been able to hold themselves accountable. And equally, they don't have, often, the skills. So I think a good coach, being someone that holds you to account is going to give you the structure to take action. Yeah, and help you progress in a way that is meaningful for you.
A bad coach is someone I would say who, who doesn't have standardized systems and processes to make your experience seamless. I don't want a client signing up, and then having to do this, get an email over here, get a meeting request over there. Like there's like 20 Different things flying at them. We have a really seamless customer journey. So that stuff, we remove that noise, make it very easy so that the time that these people is spent is spent working on getting the results that they came to me for not doing admin processes, or trying to work out when the next meeting is or trying to chase me down.
Mia Fileman 22:11
Yeah, so so, so important. So I don't know if you know this, but I put our call out onto social media last week, asking people if they wanted to be interviewed confidentially and 100% shame free for the evolution of my gurus campaign. And I had 25 People respond after a week, which tells you a lot. And I've since hosted 10 of these confidential interviews about people talking about their guru experiences. Every single one of these experiences was with a coach. So the coaching industry is hurting for sure. And a couple of things that came up in these interviews. Exactly, to your point about structure and about systems and processes was that there seems to be no flow from first session to the next session to the next session. It was like, you know, like, here we are again. And then just recapping everything that was said in the first session, and asking the same questions. And no, you know, hey, let's pick up where we left off and, and continue on this journey. It seemed to be like every session was starting, oh tell me again, this and tell me again, that. And so that was one thing that came up a lot in these interviews was around the fact that there was no preparation, no system around these extremely expensive and valuable sessions with the coach.
And then the other thing that really came up was this cookie cutter approach. I told you to launch a podcast, why didn't you launch a podcast? This is why you have not made $90,000 in 90 days. Because why aren’t you launching a podcast? Well, I'm a single mum, and I can't work five days a week. So I don't have the bandwidth for a podcast. Well, then don't tell me that this didn't work because you didn't listen to my advice, exactly as I gave it.
Penny Locaso 24:11
What I think is really interesting, I've had a lot of people come to me and they've come to me because they said they've been burned by other coaches. And they've come through word of mouth, right? So again, that word of mouth is so important. And it makes me sick to the stomach. But the experience is like what you've just shared of other coaches taking advantage, it just blows me away. So what you're saying is not unfamiliar to the point where it's actually created business for me, so I can't complain about that. But it's horrible. I hate people going through this experience.
The thing that I hate that you just spoke about is two things. One is the bullshit that is sold. If someone is out there selling you, I can help you get $40,000 consistent revenue months. I've done it so therefore you can do it. No, we're not all the same. We're not all entrepreneurs, and we don't all work the same, right? Because like you just said, we're all at different stages of life, some of us have got ADHD, some of us don't, which means that the way we work, and therefore the results that we can deliver within a specific set of time, is not the same for any of us. A good coach should definitely have the structure. But a good coach should also be adaptable, right? Because to your point about the cookie cutter, I don't believe it. I have, like you, a toolbox, right, of all of these amazing resources that I've researched and used on myself and other people over the years. But I don't sit there I say, this is the journey, we're gonna go on in terms of the flow of the journey with high level markers of how that journey will unfold in terms of you know, explore, experiment, reflect. But what the ingredients are within that journey will be determined by the individual, and what they need. And sometimes clients will turn up and say, You know what, last week, we agreed, we were gonna go here, but what I really need, is this today, and that's what we go with.
Mia Fileman 25:58
Oh, that's so good. That sounds great. So tell me how, what advice would you give to other coaches, maybe listening about how to differentiate themselves from a marketing perspective or a business perspective from the cult coaches, because I do genuinely feel for people like you and other legitimate coaches that now have to, you know, be tainted with this brush.
Penny Locaso 26:23
So you can look at it two ways, right? I used to look at it as tainted. So that's why I didn't want to call myself a coach. But now I sit there and go, You know what, it's not that hard to stand out in a sea of bullshit.
Mia Fileman 26:32
Love that. Yes.
Penny Locaso 26:33
Like I studied psychology. So I'm about to start honours in psychology, I went back at 48. I’ve already got a Master's in Business, an MBA. But I wanted to do psychology because I wanted to be able to support my clients better. I then went and did trauma therapy, and I'm studying with Dr. Gabor Ma Tei, one of the top trauma therapists in the world, right? So these are the credentials along with all my past history and other skills that I have brought to this table, right? So that stuff when I talk about credentials, that means that I can support people in a holistic and integrative way that a lot of people can't. Because I can tell you one thing that I've learned about human beings, most of us suffer trauma on some degree. And that trauma is a barrier to you realizing your potential and the results that you want in your life. So if you don't have someone that understands that and how it works, like I actually think that's unsafe, I would say in terms of, especially if you are trying to make significant changes in your life, because you can be triggered at any moment, when you are trying to make change. If you have, you know, trauma, for example, it has an impact.
So how do you stand out? Well, there's a couple of things, one, get some frickin qualifications, get some serious qualifications, do the work, you know, and when I say do the work, every client I work with, I've never had a client that will not do a case study interview, and the referrals that I get, and the amount of clients. I would say, 90% of my clients come back, like, and they come back over time, like they might go away. And like just today I've got a woman that I've worked with, who's a very successful lawyer, she runs the Victorian Women's Lawyers Association, and she's come back to me, this is the third time she's come back to me today and said, You know what I'm planning for next year, and I need your support. And it's different things, right? Because the trust that's been built is huge. The other thing I would say, and you're brilliant at this. Show up in your truth, like get online and call shit out. Yeah. And talk about why this is a problem. Why you think it's a problem, and why you don't do it. Like the more I say the things that people are thinking but are too afraid to say, the more I call stuff out, the more I connect with people.
Mia Fileman 28:46
I completely agree. When I first launched into online business, I'm like, I'm new here. Let's just tread lightly, and just keep those opinions to yourself until you understand the lay of the land. And it was crickets, crickets, crickets and then the minute I was like, not I'm, I had a gut full of these gurus, I'm done. That's when people started to take notice. And I think the reason for that from a marketing standpoint is that it makes it really easy for people to go, I want her, or I don't. She's for me, or she's not for me. Whereas if you're neutral, and you're indifferent and you play both sides and you don't have strong opinions and you just sort of blend in, you blend in. And you know unfortunately that's not the game that we're playing anymore, the game is that I want to make it really clear to someone from the get go I'm either for them or I'm not for them.
Penny Locaso 29:40
You know, we're used to something really interesting, right? I talk a lot about comparisonitis and how that actually dilutes again, takes us away from our essence, takes us away from the real light that we have. I don't follow a lot of coaches online because I actually, and maybe it's naive. I don't want to do a competitor analysis. I don't want to sit there and compare myself to other people, I want to show up as me. And so that's why I take that approach to differentiate myself because I find that the more I look at what others are doing, the more even just you have an unconscious bias to, you know, navigate to what feels safe, and it's like if they’re doing it, then it must be safe, right, and I say, do the unsafe thing. Resist what your central nervous system is telling you to do. It's there to protect you. It's why when we feel tension or fear, we often retreat, I would say, step into the fear, step into the tension, and say the thing that you're too afraid to say, because I guarantee it'll make a difference.
Mia Fileman 30:35
I completely agree. All right, so tell me about what you're doing at the moment with Letters to Balance.
Penny Locaso 30:43
This is thanks to you. You know, I've just been the last couple of days in my creative mode working on the next campaign, because you've inspired me so much. So off the back of doing your program, we created a campaign called Letters from Balance, because so many of the women that come to me, I've done over 200 depth interviews with high performing women over the last year, and one of the main things they tell me is they long for balance. And balance feels elusive, it feels like this friend that they have that they can never lock down, never, you know, lock down for a date, or a you know, a dinner, or anything like that. And so they feel like they're constantly chasing her, which makes them feel like she's getting even further away.
So I was like, what if I humanized balance? What if I turned her into a dear friend, and what if I got balance to write my followers, my subscribers, letters. Letters that come from a place of self compassion, you know, and love and from a place that enables them to make really small changes that make them feel better in each day. Make them feel like balance is not elusive. But it's something that they can have more of in each day, and stop beating themselves up. Because what I found is, as women, we can be damn nasty to ourselves, especially when we don't get the million things on the to do list done, which the reality is will never happen.
So that's what we've been doing. So we've been running a campaign called Letters from Balance, and we've had 50 people sign up for Letters from Balance, the feedback has been unbelievable. People have just said, this is so clever. And they feel, because balance has been humanized. It's like someone's talking directly to them. And it's making them look at balance through a different lens. And that's what I love to do: challenge people's perspectives. From a place of self compassion and growth.
Mia Fileman 32:28
I think it is so clever. Such a creative idea. I haven't seen it before. It is very much you over the nine weeks, we got to get to know each other a little bit. And I'm like this is so aligned with who she is as a person, as a coach. So I was extremely excited to see it launch. And I'm thrilled to hear that it's it's going well.
Penny Locaso 32:50
I think what's interesting, right with this work again, I spoke with my beautiful content person this morning, Mariah, the content Queen. Laetitia and I share the same person. And she said to me, why wouldn't you make this an evergreen lead magnet on your website? And I was like, that's gold. That's exactly, like I want to run the campaign again. But we'll tweak it slightly so that people can come to the website. And because it ends in the next week or so. But people can come to the website, and have that beautiful experience as their first experience with me, which I think would be great.
Mia Fileman 33:23
Yeah, I think that's a brilliant idea. Campaign, I read this in Ad Age, there's an incredible columnist called MT Fletcher. And he wrote: campaigns are never ending stories. And I absolutely love that. I was like, That's so true. Like, when I launched the Gurus We Deserve I thought it was just going to be one campaign. But it's actually turned out to be that campaign that I just went away upon. And so I think that led us from balance is exactly that for you, as well. And you might change it down the line. But it's definitely not a one hit wonder Penny.
Penny Locaso 34:00
No, and the thing is, once you I mean, and this is the beauty of your Campaign Classroom, like I can't advocate for it enough. You know, once you step into this space, it's like, it's hard not to love being creative. But again, I think this is a layer of you know, should, you know, that gets stripped away, like the creativity becomes a reward at the end of doing all the other things, and therefore for many of us, it just goes out the window and never happens. But the joy of having this creativity in my business, in a way that I've never heard it before, has then motivated me like I'm constantly creative, which is I think it's what more business owners need. I agree. It inspires you to go: How else could I like to use it? How do you stand out as a code? Letters from Balance stands out because people don't do this stuff and wait to see the next one.
Mia Fileman 34:51
When I launched the Creative Lab, which was like the precursor to Campaign Classroom, I was super nervous about how it would go because I love creativity. I'm creative, but because a lot of people online running businesses don't seem to be creative with their marketing, I thought thought they might not have an appetite for a three day training literally on just creativity and hitting creative states. And the response was wild. Like, I could not believe how many people it opened up a whole new audience to us, actually, of people saying love the marketing strategy and implementation and the frameworks. And you know, all of that is great, but what I really hear is how I can be more creative in my marketing and in my business. And yeah, that has been such a great moment for us, because that's how we can stand out. There are so many marketers, but there's not a lot of marketers that are offering creative and strategic training. And actually, since then, I've completely changed my website and my bio, and everything to now really step into that space of being a creative and strategic marketer.
Penny Locaso 36:01
Creativity is joyful, but in a world where productivity has become the disease, right? Creativity is not productive. Because it is a process that requires marinade like, I think the campaign I'm creating now, like, yesterday, I wrote the brief, but I'm like, I've been thinking about this and ideating on it for a month. And I just keep adding, you know, I've got a little notion board I add to it, I pull quotes and like, it's, it's not a quick process, and you can't rush it, like creativity can't be rushed. You can't wake up one day and go, right, today, I'm being creative. It's just not how it works. It's like, you've got to put an idea down, you got to walk away, you got to go out in nature, you know, you got to have a few conversations. That's why I always say, you know, the great ideas. They're the ones where the more you share them, the more they grow.
Mia Fileman 36:45
Absolutely. Well, creativity, I think, has two essential ingredients, which is time and space. Yeah. So really, you need that, those are essential. That's not something you can squish in between, you know, all the other things in your calendar that week.
Penny Locaso
No.
Mia Fileman
Well, it's been an absolute pleasure, Penny, any final takeaways for the listener today?
Penny Locaso 37:05
Oh, so based on everything we've spoken about, I would say if they haven't seen your gurus campaign to watch the video, and then when you're looking for a coach, keep that in the back of your mind.
Mia Fileman
Yeah, I love that.
Penny Locaso
Because that's like I say, that's sort of the basis to know what the red flags are. Because everything you speak of is exactly what is toxic in this industry. I would never invest in someone that is selling me X amount of dollars in X amount of months. I don't believe it. I've never seen anyone that it's worked for.
Mia Fileman 37:37
But it's impossible that it works. How can someone guarantee your income? That's not how free markets work. It’s not how competitive markets work, you can't guarantee an outcome in business businesses inherently risky. There’s too many factors, you know, what your competitors are doing, what the markets are doing, what it's nonsense.
Penny Locaso 37:58
What’s happening in your life, what stage of life that you're at, like a lot of women come to me and they say, I've got two little kids, and I'm running my own business. And I'm watching all these women on social media, and they're doing all these things, and why can't I do it? And I'm like, because you've got two small children. You have less space, like mentally and physically. So be kind to yourself, acknowledge the stage of life that you're at. And let's look at what makes sense for you. Rather than sitting there saying we're going to turn you into a million dollars, you know, success overnight. It's just bullshit.
Mia Fileman 38:31
It's absolute bullshit. And it's very self-serving. Yeah, I think maybe a real theme for this episode is about what to look out for, what is a great blueprint or checklist for deciding who you're going to invest with, whether it's a coach or a marketer, or anyone, whoever you're going to give your mat your money to? What are some markers to look for both on the positive and on the negative in order to help you make a much more informed decision? And I think one of those markers should be: look at the messaging and see whether it is purely self serving, are they talking about themselves? And how well they're doing, and their lifestyle, and their wealth, and their income? Or is it coming from a place of community and a place of service to other people, whereas, you know, it's not just the 40 minutes that I spent with you, but those are the last nine weeks, I can see that you deeply give a shit about the lives that are entrusted to you.
Penny Locaso 39:31
Without a doubt because this is a thing, right? How can you take lightly playing with people's lives because that's effectively what you aren't doing. And I would say if anyone wants a copy of the checklist, I've just turned it into a PDF. So just I'm Mia will pop all my details in the show notes. Just send me an email or message me on Instagram or LinkedIn and I will send you that so that you can go out and do your due diligence and, and not get taken advantage of by the gurus.
Mia Fileman 39:58
Yeah, we'd love to add that in the show notes. Thank you so much. And tell us where people can reach you. You've got the book as well.
Penny Locaso 40:06
Yeah so you can find me at hackinghappy.co I'm pretty prolific on LinkedIn, but you'll find me by name there. And then on Instagram hackinghappy.co
Mia Fileman 40:14
Thank you so much. And if anyone is looking for a coach, you are going to be in very safe hands with Penny. Thanks. Thank you once again for joining me on the program.
Penny Locaso
It's been a joy.
Mia Fileman
Thank you. You listened right up until the end. So why not hit that subscribe button and keep the good marketing rolling. Podcast reviews and like warm hugs. And then also the best way to support a small business. You can connect with me, Mia Fileman on Instagram or LinkedIn and feel free to send me a message. I'm super friendly.
