[00:00:00] Mia Fileman
Are you tired of empty promises and stolen ideas? Me too. Got. Marketing is a podcast for marketers and small brands who want real talk and clever strategies without the bs. Running an online business is hard, but everything gets easier when your marketing starts performing. I am Mia FileMan, your straight shooting campaign loving friend here to talk marketing, running a business, pop culture, and everything in between.
Let's dive in.
Mia
Hello friend and welcome back to Got Marketing Generalist has become a bit of a dirty word, but in small business, being able to do a lot reasonably well is often the difference between staying afloat and falling behind. So I wanna get into this conversation today. Of this idea between generalists versus specialists to have this chat, I've invited one of my best business friends, Nataleigh Elzein, onto got marketing.
This is her first time on the show, which is way, WAY overdue, and Natalie is a fractional general manager and the owner of Pinch Studios. Welcome to Gut Marketing, Nat.
Nataleigh Elzein
Thanks Mia. Thanks for having me. And I know it's been like I listened to it. I listened to your show and I've wanted to be on it, and I've just never, yeah, I can't believe it's been this long.
Really.
Mia
I know. Me too. And if anyone's listening, thinking she just has all of her friends on the podcast. [00:01:00] Yes. That is correct. If it's good enough for Joe Rogan, it's good enough for me. Oh true. Use your network. That's what I say.
Nat
Yes. That is exactly what I say. Yeah.
Mia
Alright, so tell me a little bit, now that you've recently refined it, what exactly do you do at Pinch Studios?
Nat
Oh, well, this is an interesting one, but it's something that I've definitely put my big girl pants on for and I can definitely say that we are. Like our CEO's best friend, we are their confidant. We are pretty much the thing that keeps their sanity together because we come into a business, basically A CEO has a team, whether it's small or large or medium, but we come in as that buffer between CEO and team.
The CEO then has the focus time they need to really work on that big picture thinking. Then at least they have another thinker in their team to help manage the team and create more efficiency, internal capability, confidence, and [00:02:00] empowering that team to really own their role, which will then give them more revenue, better outcomes, everyone's happy.
Mia
So that sounds pretty general to me. So would you define yourself as a generalist?
Nat
Oh, definitely. I would say I am a generalist. I'm happy to say I am a jack of all trades. Or Jill of all traits, whatever you wanna say. But yeah, I would say that I'm the same, actually.
Mia
And we'll get into that, but how do you define generalist versus specialist in today's small business landscape?
Nat
That's an interesting one because a generalist, I believe, is someone who looks at things holistically or can look at things holistically and see all the different facets, all the different moving parts, and bring them together. And they're really good at that big picture thinking, that visionary sort of thinking as well. So they're often, you know what you call a strategist or they're good at connecting the dots and seeing how things work together. It's also someone who looks [00:03:00] at, if they have a team and someone's unwell, then they can literally jump into that role and put their sleeves up and do that role really well. And I always kind of say to my clients is like, you really do need to know every facet of your business. Because I wouldn't want you to manage someone without actually knowing their role or you being in it in the first place. Whereas then a specialist, which I think gets kind of pinged around a lot, but basically a specialist is someone who really, really hones in on one particular thing, and that is their world.
It's kind of like akin to an artisan or you know, those Japanese sword makers, the way they think about mastery. Mastering one thing really well and doing it for the rest of your life and like that's their vocation. But if we take it back to small business, it's very much like if you can tell me the trends before, I don't know, the Instagram guy can tell me the trend, then you are a specialist.
[00:04:00] Like you ha live, breathe this thing. Whereas I just don't do that. I don't have the capacity.
Mia
Those were excellent definitions and ladies and gentlemen. I should have forewarn you, but Nat is the queen of analogies and today is not going to disappoint. So amazing. I have no notes. Why do you think that this idea, you mentioned it earlier, of Jack of all trades, master of none hits.
Such a nerve for so many of us when you have just said that a generalist is so important in a business.
Nat
Yeah, and I think, look, both are needed, but as a small business owner, if you don't have that generalist by your side, then you really can't specialize in what you want to specialize in. Right? I think jack of all trades has been thrown around a bit of an insult.
You know? It has a kind of bad connotation. And the thing is, I just wanna get real clear [00:05:00] and make it and normalize the fact that you don't have to be a master at everything. I mean, I always go by done is better than perfect. I mean, the way small business works, we are in living, breathing entities every single day. They evolve, depending on the economics, depending on a platform wanting to do something. Like you really have to be able to ebb and flow with it. So being a jack of all trades also allows you to step back and kind of take that in, take the blows as they come, and then really create that solution without affecting the other facets in the business. I just think it is also the fact that we have now in our own society, you don't do one job for the rest of your life, but back in the day, our parents is like, well, you really have to know something and then do that job and do it well. I think we're celebrating now in society the fact that we can kind of move between things and just really, um, I don't know, celebrate our own interests as well.
Mia
Yeah. I think it [00:06:00] would be so challenging to start a small business and not be a generalist in terms of all the things that you do need to learn how to do before you can outsource 'em. Yeah. Great. If you could afford to hire every specialist to build your website and edit your podcast and make your social media videos. And write your captions, and you had that money to hire specialists, great. But that's not the experience for most small business owners. So being able to do it reasonably well ourselves. Or have someone in our team who can help us with multiple tasks is actually super valuable. And I don't think that this is something that we need to feel imposter syndrome about.
Nat
If anything, we should be like, yeah, this is great. Yeah, and I think I always go back to the story that, you know how you built your own website at that one point. Is it the Kajabi website? Or you had to build it because something happened there and you once said it was in Marketing Circle, and you're just like, no, I, you need [00:07:00] to learn these things so that if you do get stuffed over, then at least you can like, kind of save yourself instead of, you know, how many times does like something happen in our business? So are we gonna just wait here? Wait, Twitter, our thumbs waiting for someone to save us. No, like we don't have that time. And I know Mia, your brain and my brain are very similar. They run a thousand miles per hour. Like we are finding that solution. We're just getting it across the line to get onto that next thing.
Because you are building something and when you are building something from scratch, like a small business, you need to be able to move quickly.
Mia
I, I cannot handle. The lack of control of being dependent on a third party to do something in my business because we don't have the benefit of time in small business that bigger businesses have because we need to move much faster than they do.
'cause that is probably one of the only advantages that we have over there. We need to move really quickly, especially in online [00:08:00] business, which is where I play. Things move very, very quickly. So waiting three weeks for a website developer to get back with me is a hard no. And I can't tell you the sense of satisfaction that I get over being able to do those, those things.
Like I can pull together a landing page on Kajabi in two hours and it'll be pretty good. And I feel a lot of pride and satisfaction over that.
Nat
I, I agree. So a lot of my clients, they might, you know, we have a scope of works, of course. But sometimes they might need a landing page created, and I'm not a website developer, but it's Squarespace, so I'm just gonna be like, yeah, I can easily just create this landing page for you, ensure that's mobile optimized, and off we go instead of having to then recruit for them and find that person.
And that takes a long time when I'm like, actually, we need this round table landing page up so we can get sales through the door in like two months. Like we don't have that time. But we do have the agility, and I [00:09:00] think that is where small business can thrive is like if you can just get on that agility train and just ride it, you are gonna succeed in some point.
Mia
Yeah. All right, so let's consider someone is starting a new business. They are trying to decide whether they should broaden or specialize. What are some of the signs do you think that you should niche down versus keeping a broad service offering?
Nat
Hmm. I and my mind just typically goes to team. For instance, if you are running a digital marketing agency and it is a full suite.
You're going to need a bunch of specialists to do that. A couple of generalists. An admin person. It's like, what do you want your team to look like? What does success look like to you? What does your organization look like to you? If you are like, actually, no, I don't want to be managing a team, or I don't wanna actually go [00:10:00] that far, or actually, I'd rather be a one woman agency or whatever that might look like.
Then again. I think I go back to the Japanese mastery, it's like, well, maybe you just want to master something and just do it really well and put all your attention and care into that one thing. It really, I think it's more of a calling of sorts is how I probably see it.
Mia
Yeah, so I ran a full service marketing agency for seven years, and it was regionally based in Toowoomba and Darwin, but.
The biggest mistake I made was having it too broad. We did too many things for too many different types of businesses, and because we were in a small market like Toowoomba and Darwin, I didn't want to specialize in tourism or hospitality or mining. We wanted just one mining client and now, and then we wanted no mining clients.[00:11:00] But because we had such different clients with very different needs, we were expected to be experts in SEO and Google ads and copywriting and design and branding and strategy. It didn't allow us the ability to template any part of our business and have these repeatable frameworks or systems that we took our clients through, which gives you a lot of that economies of scale within your business.
Every client, we basically had to start from scratch and we had to go and find specialists, or we had to try to learn Google ads ourselves. And honestly, it was quite a flawed business model. Likewise, though, we were having this discussion in Advance Circle and a couple of our members are meta ads specialists and they just do meta ads. And I've always looked at that business with envy going, oh, it's so simple. All they do is meta ads. They understand exactly what works with Ad creatives. They understand [00:12:00] Meta Ads Manager so well. They can just go and do that part for their clients, get great results, move on. But then equally they have frustrations, which is that the ads is only a really small piece of the marketing puzzle.
What if the client that they're running ads for doesn't have a good website, doesn't have email marketing, whose organic social media is rubbish? And then our Marketing Circle members were saying maybe we need to broaden to offer these services so that we can service our clients better, get them better outcomes across the entire marketing ecosystem.
Nat
It's funny because when I first started in business, I was a VA and then a marketing va, and I only did maybe socials and email and maybe a blog or whatever, and then. I realized people needed websites, so I added website development, and that probably is the worst thing I could have done because it's not even working with, you know, different people and different [00:13:00] contractors.
But I didn't know it enough that if something were to happen, I couldn't jump in and fix it. I had to wait on someone. It was that loss of control that you were talking about. Then I did, yeah, that full service agency as well, because I thought, well, if I could give everything to anyone, would be that one-stop shop. People can come to us, they trust us, we're good in the market, we're very valuable, affordable, all that stuff. And then I realized there was still a lack of control because we were just marketing. And then I thought, wow. They're coming to me for marketing, but really what they need is a business strategy.They need systems to support the leads that are coming in, and they need sales consulting. So I did, you know, my own thing where I put a package together, which was strategy systems, then marketing, and then I've come full circle again. Because I'm like, actually, I don't wanna do the [00:14:00] implementation, the execution as much. I think it's a people thing that sometimes causes issues in businesses most times, and for CEOs to get their focus, help them with that, and help them with the strategy, then I do oversee everything, but not in a broad sense as much anymore, if that makes sense.
Mia
Yeah, absolute sense. I think the reason why people feel imposter syndrome around being a generalist is that it is hard for them to articulate what they do. So actually the problem here is not that you are a generalist versus a specialist. It is about whether you can clearly articulate what it is that you do and the value that you provide, and there is a role for both. So I'm a marketing generalist. I've spent 22 years. As a brand manager and brand managers are strategic integrators, we [00:15:00] connect the dots. We do a bit of everything, but when I was a brand manager at Maybelline or at Big or at Kraft, I wasn't writing the website. I wasn't designing the social media tiles. I wasn't even writing the copy.
My job was to engage the specialists and make sure that the brand was always represented and that I was the custodian of that brand. And then at a push I could write some messaging, uh, to brief or to guide my specialists. But ultimately I was the one that had that big picture. And that's a really, really vital role within a business. It a big business and a small business.
Nat
Oh, a hundred percent. And I think that I did feel a lot of imposter syndrome when someone asked me. What do I do? One, you know, I did marketing, but marketing, like, I didn't go to school for marketing. I didn't learn that. I learned it through doing, or through Campaign Del Mar or through, you [00:16:00] know, uh, back in the day when your, your first business. And I felt very much like I couldn't articulate what we did well as well because I'd be like, well actually we do marketing plus. We do your systems and sales to ensure that everything's working together. Like I could not articulate that, whereas now I'm just like, I know exactly what I do. I know what lights people up.
I know what the value is. So even though it's a holistic role, it's still niched down enough for me to go, okay, I can sit in this and feel confident because it's actually very much me. Whereas I feel like I was wearing way too many hats. That didn't fit my head pretty much.
Mia
Yeah, I love, I love where you've landed in terms of your positioning.
Fractional general manager makes so much sense to me. We know what that means. A general manager is a generalist. Yeah. I can be like, Hey, you can't cop out because I've said it. I'm general. Don't expect anything real [00:17:00] special. Of course it's special, but we understand that terminology of a general manager being in charge of the financial elements of a business, of the people and culture, elements of the business.
Of, you know, that whole cross section and you know, many small businesses who you work with and medium sized businesses, they can't afford a full-time general manager. So this idea of fractional or outsourced, again, we are really familiar with this language of fractional CMO, fractional, COO, fractional, bloody whatever, o.
And so I think a lot of this challenge is about using language that people are going to understand. And communicating that value. So I'm a marketer and a sea of bloody marketers, and I'm a generalist marketer, but choosing campaigns as what I wanted to be known for, I think is a really nice way to.
Become known for something specific. But if you really think about it, campaigns [00:18:00] require email marketing, organic social media, paid, social media, pr. It is actually a generalist skillset to run a campaign. So it's a nice way to package up the fact that I'm a generalist in a way that people can understand, oh, me as the campaign lady.
So there's ways that we can go around this. I think what I would urge people is first figure out. What problem and what value do you deliver for your clients? Let's do that. In terms of some strategic mapping. Don't worry about whether that language is customer facing yet. Let's figure that out. What problems do you solve? And then let's come back and figure out the marketing messages. But a lot of people are, they get caught up in the marketing messages driving their actual business model, which is a bit nuts.
Nat
Yeah. I. Wanna go on top of that and go, actually, I listen to my clients. So when my clients engaged with me, it was for a [00:19:00] marketing role, marketing agency, CMO role. But it wasn't until they started giving me feedback in terms of, oh, do you like the way you've explained x? Do you know much about sales? Do you, what do you think about the lead to, you know, client, uh, journey? Uh, and they started asking all these questions and I would just share, you know, my thoughts and obviously my experience and whatnot.
And that's when they started to say, oh, you are not just a marketer. Like you are actually doing so much more because we've used marketing agencies in the past. And we had to write our emails or something. I, I don't know. But basically it was actually listening to them that kind of flick the switch for me going, I need to reposition myself because clearly what I'm delivering is not what I'm actually selling in the discovery call.
And they're finding it super, super valuable, which is great, but at the same time, I can help way more people if I position myself [00:20:00] correctly. So it's also listening to your customers and listening to your clients because they are saying things and they say what you are really good at. Like, they're always like, oh, I love your brain, which I used to think is such a weird thing to say to someone, but, um, they just want you in a room and they like to pick your brain because you can connect the dots or you can translate something really well.
Or they would say, I don't know, they would go on a huge, huge tangent and I would pretty much summarize that within two sentences. I'm like, oh, so this is how you're feeling, or this is what you mean. Summarize it in that way, but even like interviewing your clients, so now I've actually interviewed all my clients to understand the value, to understand what they think I do, and then kind of creating a bridge from that to then my marketing messages.
Mia
Yeah, I think that's spot on. I'm willing to admit probably for the first time on this podcast that for a full 12 months of starting an online business after I sold my agency. I had not properly articulated what [00:21:00] it was that I was doing, and there were people who were like, look, you seem cool. I would like to work with you. I just don't actually know what it is that you do, and that's probably a full 12 months. So everyone gets this wrong before they get a fight.
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Mia
Yeah. And what might make sense in your head might not necessarily make sense in your customer's head, and the solution to that is really just to talk to them like you've just said. Yeah. And figure out exactly what it is that they want. I went from offering campaigns on a subscription, which absolutely nobody wanted because they couldn't tell me what a campaign was to step two. Teaching people what a campaign was great, but they were still not running campaigns because they didn't actually have all the other marketing foundations in place, like email marketing and good social media strategy and high converting website in order to support campaigns. And then I finally dawned on me [00:22:00] very late that campaigns are tier two, tier three education, you know, and so. We work up to campaigns. We don't start a business year one and run a campaign. I mean, unless you're a professional marketer. Yeah. And so, yeah, that has completely changed how I package up my services.
But yeah, we all fuck this up. Yeah. Profoundly before we go to market. Right. And then we actually start talking about ourselves and what we offer, and we get that feedback. The difference between those people who learn and nail it and those people who don't, are the ones that listen and that accept that feedback willingly and approach the feedback with curiosity like you did.
What does he mean or she mean when she says she loves my brain? Oh, they're saying that there's a strategic thinker here. That's what they need in their business. They've got a lot of doers. They've got a lot of people who are happy to follow clear instructions and [00:23:00] execute, but there's not enough people in this business just the way that it is.
It's often the CEO plus a whole lot of doers, and they're missing that whole middle piece where the CEO now has to make every decision. They're done. They don't wanna make any more decisions.
Nat
No. They're exhausted. And all I hear is I want another thinker. Mm. I just need another thinker. They love their team.
There's nothing wrong with their team, but they just need someone who can. Make that executive decision for them. Understanding, I think what you said about the custodian of the brand, it's the custodian of the business and the CEO and ensuring that you nurture them as much as possible because they are the visionary and keeping them at bay, steering the ship in the right direction is so, so important.
That way we can still give jobs to the, the team. Otherwise, I, I think I read something about. The reasons why businesses fail is not because of money. It's because we run out of steam. Like founders just run outta steam, and that is something I'm really trying to [00:24:00] not allow to happen. So by having someone in the middle and being that buffer, being that custodian, understanding the values the business has, understanding the direction, the three to 10 year goal. That's important.
Mia
Yeah, absolutely. Alright, I'd like to shift gears now and talk about LinkedIn because you and I are both massive fans of the platform, but what I have found interesting. Is that LinkedIn scares the absolute bejesus out of most people and even quite a few marketers, and I, I really don't understand what's so scary about the platform.
Do you?
Nat
No, I see it like anything in terms of marketing or sales. It's conversation making, it's relationship building. I think it's great. The fact that you have access. Two, the people that are making the decisions, like you can't get that on a website, like go to a website, go to their contact page. You're not gonna get that person's [00:25:00] email address.
You're not gonna build that relationship with them. But I think what's daunting is probably the term I would use for what people have told me, is because you can't hide. You can't hide behind a social media post. You can't hide behind a profile. It is you. It's your full name. Natalie Ine. Says what you do so that they know it's you at the other end.
It's not some bot or some social media manager doing it kind of thing.
Mia
Yeah. I think what intimidates people about LinkedIn is that they still see it as a professional platform. Yeah. And they know that they're dealing with CEOs and marketing directors and decision makers, and it feels scary because they feel they need to.
Over intellectualize their content and if anything, it's completely the opposite, right?
Nat
Yeah. The amount of CEOs that I've talked to, even when it comes to like creating [00:26:00] partnerships, sponsorships, and all that, all they want is something that is so simple to understand. They don't have the time to, you know, if you give something cryptic.
Just tell me what it is. Gimme the bottom line. That's what my father-in-law law always says. We have a huge story. He's like, can you just gimme the bottom line? That's all I need to know. So we, we go with the bottom line first and then we tell the story to him. But also I think we have to understand that these guys, no matter what their role is, they're still humans at the end of the day.
Yes. They have different responsibilities. Yes. I don't know, move millions of dollars around. But I've always seen that, and I dunno what that means. People think I don't see hierarchy, but I genuinely don't I, when I was even an ea, I would talk to the CEO, like as if he was a human. And to be honest, everyone was scared of him in person.
And when I talked to him, I broke down those barriers and he pretty much was relieved because it's lonely. [00:27:00] At the top. Mm. Yeah. I think that that is one of your superpowers, really, the fact that you are not easily intimidated by outreach or by someone's title, and you are not enamored with someone's position. You are just like, Hey, if there's a way that we can meaningfully work together in a way that's mutually beneficial, I'm gonna shoot my shot.
Mia
And that's exactly how we need to approach small business, which is why you are such a clever operator and why your business has grown so quickly. The other thing that I see, I don't know, you tell me if you are the same, but a lot of people are afraid of LinkedIn because they are generalists or multi hyphenates, but because LinkedIn is under your name, be a FileMan, they don't know how to show up on LinkedIn.
Whereas the, you know, they have three Instagram handles for their three different. Business models, like, you know, campaign, Delmar has a handle, got marketing, has a [00:28:00] handle, ripple Festival has a handle on Instagram, which by the way is three accounts we need to manage. Uh, I, I don't do it. The social media manager does it, uh, shout out to Elise, but whereas with LinkedIn, how do you show up?
Who do I show? What version of Mia Farman do I show up as?
Nat
I love the fact that you asked for a version. I think. Something that I'd like to urge people to understand is that, one, we're really smart, we're really witty. Everyone else on LinkedIn is the same, right? We understand that we're all multifaceted and I think that's why LinkedIn leverages itself as the personal brand platform. You are able to show up just as you are. You are able to have speaker, you know, business one, and then a little line in between business two, a little line in between advisor and a little line in between. You can ebb and flow with how you like, how you wanna present yourself, but also. What I like about LinkedIn is the [00:29:00] fact that you don't have to stick in one box as well.
So for instance, if you know you are in campaign mode, or if you know you are wanting to get more software clients, then you can change your banner, change your about, change everything in your bio to leverage that and to attract that sort of person. It's meant to be your digital shop front. It's meant to really show who you are right now. And I think that's why I've always liked it because I've always been a sort of chameleon of sorts where I don't wanna be put in a box. I want to be able to move about in my role pretty much. I think that's so spot on this idea of people think that LinkedIn is harder because it's just your name and you don't know how to show up, but because it's your name, it invites you.
To show up as your full self multihyphenate, multi-passionate with the sourdough and the sales that because it all sits under your personal [00:30:00] brand and humans are human and will do human things like have multiple fingers in different pies, it actually facilitates that in a really, really beautiful way.
Mia
And then practically exactly like you said, Nat, you could decide Monday, Wednesday, Friday are my Ripple days. Tuesday, Thursday are my campaign Delmar days, or which I would recommend do a more campaign approach. We are now four weeks away from Ripple, so you're not gonna see a lot of campaign Delmar content. You are just gonna get full Ripple Festival. But then after Ripple Festival's finished, you're not gonna hear about Ripple for a long time while I go back to focusing on the podcast or campaign Delma. So I, I, I think we can make this hard if we want it to, to be hard.
Nat
Oh, yes. But I also think like you won't get punished. The fact that, you know, you do, you're gonna do ripple fall in like the next four weeks, and then you're gonna go back to your always on campaign Delmar content. LinkedIn doesn't punish you. The people on LinkedIn won't punish you. They won't get confused [00:31:00] by the messaging. They just understand that, you know, you're a co-founder, a founder, multi-business entrepreneur.
That's just the norm. Yeah. Because of the way that I said it earlier on, we're all about our portfolio careers. We're all about extending ourselves as much as possible. That's just us in general.
Mia
Totally. Alright. Why do you think so many people spend time on LinkedIn but don't make any money from it?
Nat
Because they're not proactive? No. So yeah, I know confident. Uh, yeah. I, um. It's an interesting one because a lot of people ask me, oh, how did you get, you know, six discovery calls in one week? And I said, oh, well, three, were from LinkedIn. Oh, how did you do that? And I said, well, when someone follows me or someone connects with me, I reach out.
And I send them a message, go figure. I start a conversation, I get to know them. Or if someone comments on my LinkedIn post, [00:32:00] I comment back. Then I go into the dms and talk to them and see what they're all about and see if I can help anywhere. I just feel like if you use LinkedIn as a sales tool to ensure that you have access to the right people.
For instance, I remember back in the day when I really wanted to work with, you know, I was against food waste. Still I'm against food waste, but I wanted to work with those people who were advocating for it. And I found the CEOs and I literally just sent them a message. So I would go on a post, and I remember this guy, uh, he just went, uh, to his Nonnas house and they were cooking gel, like, you know, um, what, what do you call it?
Tomato sauce. And I would comment and I said, I love doing that with my nonna. Making it really personal, making it really them. Actually, he reached out to me, he messaged me after that and we had a good chat and I said, look, if you're ever looking for someone to do your marketing, I understand you have a marketing team, but I can create some workshops. This is something that I'm really passionate about. [00:33:00] Here's my statement. And you know, things happen from there. So I think it's being proactive. I mean, sales in 20 25, 20 26, beyond, people don't want to just attract people anymore. You know what I mean? Like we, we need to be, be proactive and to ensure that we're getting the right people that we're working with, the people we wanna be working with.
Rather than everything or like any opportunities that we're waiting upon, I just, um, don't think that's a smart decision anymore.
Mia
Yeah. Look, I'm a huge proponent of the inbound marketing method, but people misunderstand it. Yeah. They think inbound is someone literally coming to you saying, Hey Mia, I want to work with you. And you not doing anything along that way to encourage that. That's not the inbound method. The inbound method is, is actually what you just laid out, which is they've actually made the first step by commenting on your [00:34:00] post, and then you make the next step. It's not all them, you, you don't just sit back and wait for the the customers to come knocking on your door.
That's not inbound. That's lazy.
Nat
It is very lazy. That, yeah. And I just think of it like, what would you do if you met this person in a park? Would they say something to you and you just not talk back to them? Like,
Mia
that's such a good analogy. She did it again.
Nat
I'm just like, how awkward is that someone is using their vital time?
And to be honest, time is my most expensive currency to talk to me to say, Hey, I'm here and I agree or disagree, I'm gonna give them the time back. That's just called respect. So. And you know, if I then look at their profile and I see that there's someone that I would really like to get to know, then I kind of hammer it up a little bit.
But there are steps to that. I mean, what you say on date 17 is not what you're gonna say on date one. So we're not marrying the person yet.
Mia
Yeah. Okay. I have [00:35:00] an analogy. It's not gonna be as good, but go for it. All right, so moving at the end of the year. Trying to get rid of some more stuff. Some of the stuff I'm trying to get rid of, I had in storage for 10 months while I was overseas, so it's finally time to get rid of it, and I'm selling it on Depop. If anyone is not using Depop, oh my God, please go and use it. It's the best. I digress for a minute. But basically you upload a photo of your item and then it AI generates the description, including the size and the condition based on the photo, so that it literally takes you seconds. To upload an item. And so I started taking photos of the actual tag so that it could see the size and the brand. Mm. Anyway. Amazing. With Depop people like, they like your items, and then Depop says to me, Natalie just liked your item. Do you want to send her an offer? This is recommended. And it's like, yes, that, [00:36:00] yes. Do you see a hundred percent?
Nat
See, 'cause I was like, well, Facebook marketplace, who. Because on Facebook Marketplace, you put something up, people in, there's impressions. People save it, but you can't see who saved it. You don't know who saved it, but it's meant for them to ask, is this item still available? It's like, yes, it's so annoying. But Depop, the fact that they've done that, it's kind of like. The dating apps as well, right? You know, making the first move. You should be able to, isn't that the outcome you want? You wanna sell this thing, so why don't we actually put just a little bit of effort in to do that?
Mia
So, me being the marketer that I am, yes.
I had to test this, right? I had to go, okay, I haven't been sending the offer. 'cause as far as I'm concerned, they, they can see the product. Why should I send it to them? Right? Lazy, very lazy. And then I was like, well let, if it's recommended by Depop, why don't I just start sending them the product? I'm not giving a [00:37:00] discount. You know how I feel about discounting, right?
Nat
Oh, I know.
Mia
Okay, so I'm just gonna send them the product. And what do you know? I sold three dresses. What? Oh yeah. You reached out and you sold three dresses. Yeah, I reached out three times, sold three dresses, no discount. I'm the person on Depop who was getting 70, $80 for a dress.
Not the people who are like. I just want this gone. Here's my age dress for $32. Like, babe. No, no.
Nat
And I think I could've got you more money. Yeah. Right. And I think the whole thing about Depop, which you probably know as well, is the fact you're giving second life to the item. Yes. It's not about thrifting.
For less money. It's about getting a really good quality item still and just breathing new life into it so it doesn't go into landfill. Yep. So I think that's awesome. And if you said, yeah, you did it three times and you sold three, that's a hundred percent hit rate, in my opinion.
Mia
Exactly. Totally. All right.
What has been your biggest LinkedIn wing? Something that. [00:38:00] Tangibly move the needle for your business.
Nat
I typically go on LinkedIn and before I know I'm gonna post, I do a little scroll. I engage with people, always genuine comments because I can't make small talk for the life of me, but comment, genuinely, uh, really get invested in what they have to say and then I post because then that will come up in their algorithm as well. Right. What I really like about that though is that if I connect with someone, I also get my reach of that. That post goes to their second and thirds as well, so the reach is not just to that person that I typically wanna talk to, and that then generates comments in my LinkedIn. I comment back, and like I said, it's just having a conversation. So I feel like I'm not trivializing this enough. But anyway, it's just having a conversation and [00:39:00] people want to then continue that conversation and they go in the dms and it's not wasting their time. It's really just enjoying valuable conversation these days. And then finding an in, so for instance, I always, when when they comment back, we talk about that specific thing and I go, well, what?
What about that resonated for you? Then they share and they always share something that's a bit of a pain as well, because it resonates. It's hit home somewhere. When they share that pain, then I go, well, have you thought of, or would you consider and recommending, rather than pushing something is always gonna win you the money anyway.
And we continue on that. But again, that might be over a couple, a couple of days, a couple of weeks. You never should push. People, because again, you are talking person to person. It's not some business that you can hide behind. And I think about that analogy of being in the park. If I just said to you, Mia, like you said, hi, [00:40:00] how are you?
I really liked your dress or something. Oh, do you want my offer for fractional gm? Like, I actually think you need this and this, and that's not gonna come across really well. But yet the, when I connect with some people, their first message is a cell. And I'm instantly like, how do you even know I'm your ideal client?
Mia
That's right. So has that resulted in some wins that you can share?
Nat
Uh, yes. So the wins, um, basically I, I call a win a client. Mm-hmm. Because, um, so VIP days, I've gotten VIP days from that, or I've gotten connections with other organizations. So for instance, if I'm looking to talk to Aidas or MJ Bale. By me connecting with other people who have those connections, it's really, really good.
For instance, I know Mia, uh, she was connected with a mutual friend on LinkedIn that I didn't know very well, but I really loved this person and what they were doing in their world. So I asked Mia, Hey, how are you [00:41:00] going? This is someone that I really wanna connect with. Any chance you could. Introduced me and you did.
And then yeah, we started working together on their software app.
Mia
Amazing. I love that your wins are customers and it's like, I'm not beating around the bush.
Nat
Oh no. Like look, love email subscribers and all that jazz. But at the same time, I think, well, I make a better impact when I'm in an organization. So yeah,
Mia
I've actually got a cool win for LinkedIn as well. That's not necessarily a customer, but I. And this was Odette recommended this in Hack Your Own pr. I started interacting with the editor of Marketing Mag's content on LinkedIn. So they would share an article from Marketing Mag, and then I would leave a thoughtful comment about what I thought about that article.
Mm. And then I ended up sending a DM to him where I had some additional thoughts about a particular article that he wrote. And actually it [00:42:00] was him in the DM that said. Oh, I really like the way that you think. Would you ever want to write for Marketing Mag? And as a result, I then pitched him my first ever PR pitch, which was like four years ago now.
Oh my gosh. And yeah, it took 10 minutes for him to go, yeah, absolutely. We would love this for Marketing Mag. And I had my first story and it was all through LinkedIn and it cost me nothing. And yeah, started a really great relationship with that publication who I've now written for multiple times.
Nat
Yeah, I think that's a really, really key one to talk about a bit more and unpack because I think, I mean, we know they're always looking for the next story.
They're always looking for people to write, and if someone can articulate, you know, a message really, really well, and they just get their whole vibe and the fact that you were. Commenting and being genuine about it. They're just like, well, this is easy. I've got my next story. Like you've just [00:43:00] made it so much easier for them.
Mia
Totally. 100%. Well, it has been an absolute pleasure chatting with you, Natalie. We will do this again. Definitely. Yeah, definitely. Do you have any final thoughts you'd like to leave the listener with today?
Nat
I think be brave guys. I mean, life's too short and I know that's. A bit cliche, but it really is, and I mean, we're in business not to be small, right?
We're in business to really pack a punch to either get our impact out there, to create a movement, to say that message, but we can't do it alone. So by connecting with people on LinkedIn or by finding your tribe or whatever you wanna call it. I think that should be something that everyone puts their thought into.
Mia
I think that's a really great one. With Ripple Festival, I've been so much braver reaching out to people, and it's because Ripple Festivals intended to create a really positive impact, you know, to change up business events. And I see this as something that can change people's lives. [00:44:00] And so I've been doing a lot more outreach and putting myself out there.
And then I had this come to Jesus moment. I'm like, you're not changing anyone's life with Marketing Circle and Campaign. I'm, of course you are. Why was Ripple Festival mean that you feel like you can wear your heart on your sleeve more, but not with Marketing Circle? And it's really shifted something for me.
So, um, yeah, I, I think that's a great piece of advice to end on.
Nat
No worries. Well, thank you for having me, Mia.
Mia
Amazing.
Outro
I've started a substack as the ideal companion to the podcast. It's packed with extra insights, visuals, and nuggets [00:39:00] that didn't make it into the episodes. Plus, you can revisit past editions, any type if you want more or just prefer to read, you'll love it.
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