[00:00:00] Mia Fileman
Are you tired of empty promises and stolen ideas? Me too. Got. Marketing is a podcast for marketers and small brands who want real talk and clever strategies without the bs. Running an online business is hard, but everything gets easier when your marketing starts performing. I am Mia FileMan, your straight shooting campaign loving friend here to talk marketing, running a business, pop culture, and everything in between.
Let's dive in.
Stef Hanson
All right, let's start. We are rolling.
Mia
Hey Stef, do you mind if I ask a question?
Stef
Sure.
Mia
What exactly are we talking about today?
Stef
This is a time where we get to flip the script. Okay. Okay. And I'm actually gonna ask you questions on my podcast. Yes. Okay. Sounds great. Can we just acknowledge that typically you [00:01:00] like to have a lot more things organized?
Mia
Yep. Spot the control freak.
Stef
Yes. But I'm quite impressed that you just allowed this to sort of roll with it. I gave you no brief nothing.
Mia
I'm very trusting of you.
Stef
Oh, okay.
Mia
Not so much of other people. Yeah. Which we, we can unpack, but I, I definitely trust you.
Stef
That's so kind.
Mia
Yeah. Just because we are so different.
Right. But you are creative genius. I am all here for.
Stef
Okay. Amazing. Yeah. This may not be all that creative though, just Nah. Well thank you that, that means a lot and I kind of knew that you would be pretty, pretty okay with just going with the flow and the way that I would love to interview you. Uh, well I guess the way that I like to interview in, in general in these kind of circumstances is I don't like to brief you too much 'cause I, I've got a rough idea of where I'd like the conversation to go, but I'm also really open and hoping. That it'll go in a direction that we have no idea. Yeah.
Mia
This is why I don't [00:02:00] provide questions to my guests. Mm. I do provide a discussion guide. So that they Yeah, you're laughing already.
Stef
Just 'cause I'm like, she would've been expecting a discussion guide, but she has refrained from asking for it.
Mia
Yeah. I think you caught me at like a weakness, it's like school holidays and I just don't have enough capacity to think ahead. And you're like, I'm, I've got her, I've got her exactly where I wanna, but like, I think it's important for them to know where I want the podcast direction to go. 'cause otherwise it, it could really go anywhere. There is nothing worse. Like do you agree when someone has questions and then they're just reading their pre-prepared anxious?
Stef
Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Horrific. Yeah. Terrible. And podcasts. Like take away. Yes. We've gotta create content and you know, now they're all being filmed and stuff, but podcasts in, its like original sort of form is meant to be long form interviews or, or however you, whatever you're sort of talking about. And the [00:03:00] ability to be a little bit more vulnerable.
Yeah. Because you don't typically, you don't have cameras and lights and everything in your face. And I always found that that was a beautiful thing about podcasting. And I always found when I interviewed people that they do become a little bit more vulnerable and open because.
It's not about all those other things, but it's obviously morphed a bit because content is, I know, and like that's, uh,
Mia
I'm really regretful that podcasting now requires those social media clips because, and actually something that I'm doing, which I'm happy to share, is that sometimes I'll record the podcast episode and then I'll go back and just record the social media snippet standalone.
So that I'm not worrying about during the recording, having to get like a nice, neat, tidy 62nd, highly articulated, polished grab. I just record that completely separately and then. Good for the rest of the episode.
Stef
I like that little insight. Yeah. Are we allowed to swear on your podcast?
Mia
100%.
Stef
Excellent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here we [00:04:00] go. All right. Okay. I, I actually wanna start, normally I don't have like actual fully designed questions, but there's a couple that I do, I ask, and it's, it's your fault because you sort of gave me this idea in terms of a question. What would you say? How your kids respond to the question, what is the most meia thing about mia? But you have to answer as if your kids are answering.
Mia
oh my goodness, my kids. It would have to be around cooking and meal preparation and like something around the fact that. Oh, my mom will just make that for you. My, my, my mom. My mom will just whip that up for you. Whatever it is that you want.
Stef
That's fair. Also because Mia's coming out for dinner tomorrow night and is bringing dinner for the kids because she cannot help herself. I cannot help myself. Yeah. Yeah. And we want to argue. Yeah. Yes.
Stef
Okay. What would Dave say is the most Mia thing about Mia?
Mia
Dave's my husband. Oh, yes. Uh, most Mia thing about Mia from Dave's perspective, go-getter.
He uses the word [00:05:00] thruster, not in a sexual context, but just like Dave's a bit of a procrastinator. He is not so great at admin. If something can be delayed, he'll delay it. I, that's not me. I'm very, very, very ambitious and very motivated. Yeah, and like when he works from home, he really struggles. Because there's just too many distractions, whereas literally, the kitchen could be on fire. The kids could be yelling and screaming, and there is no disrupting me. Like I'm in the zone. I'm not even wearing headphones. Yeah, right. It's like they're not there. Good to know when I'm on task. Yeah. All right. BYO Fire extinguisher. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Go-getter for sure. Yeah. Love it. Okay. All right.
Stef
What would your friends say is the most meia thing about Mia?
Mia
Generous.
Stef
Oh, that's nice.
Mia
Yeah. Yeah. Which I really love. Yeah. Yeah. I don't believe in splitting the bill. It's not my thing. I pay this time. You pay next time, or you don't [00:06:00] like, I don't care. I'm the same. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is no splitting. Oh my goodness.
I went to New York with two friends and they literally had the calculator out, but you had this glass of wine and I had it crushed my soul. I just cannot. I cannot, yeah. I'm not able to like. Donate as much as I would like to charity, but when it's friends and all of that, I, I, I, I do like to pick up the check a little bit.
Stef
Yeah, I'm the same. Yeah. You and I will possibly get into an argument when we go out for dinner. Very reason.
Mia
Yeah. I see that with my dad and he's, he's constantly arguing with his family and his friends at the end of the meal about who gets to pay. I, I really love that.
Stef
Yeah. I get it from my granddad.
Mia
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you've spoken about your, your granddad best. He sounds he's the best. Amazing. Yeah. Like a good human.
Stef
Very, very good human. And the more I find out about myself, the more I realize I get a lot from him. Mm. It's quite, it's fascinating. Mm, fascinating finding out about yourself. Yeah.
Mia
All I love [00:07:00] learning about myself.
Stef
Same.
Mia
And with age, I'm realizing more and more. That's so interesting that you reacted like that. Maybe, you know, your flags go up when, when that happens. Mm-hmm. And that's so interesting. And like just that, that mental check and without judgment, like we are so judgmental of ourselves and of other people.
And now I'm trying to channel my, I do a lot of yoga trying to channel my yoga teacher. And be like, Hey, why don't you just observe that without judgment? Mm. About yourself? About myself. Yeah. Oh, interesting. How I reacted without being like, well, that was stupid. You're so dumb. You're such a bitch. Why? You always think the worst of people and like just, just observe that reaction that you just had to that.
And without judging it, just observe it for a minute. Yeah, yeah. Right. Work in progress. Work. Oh yeah. Work in progress. Or I like to say. In business and as humans, we are always in beta. We're just always in beta. Yes. Fair. Yeah. And [00:08:00] roll with it, and that's okay. Yeah, totally. Absolutely.
Stef
Oh, this is cool. All right.
And and learning about yourself, do you find that that makes you more empathetic to other people and their sort of needs or their behaviors? Yeah, for those who are just listening, just got the biggest eye roll. No. Okay.
Mia
Alright. Oh God. Here we go. We've started strong. We have, all right. I am very goal focused.
I know I set a goal. I know what I want. I identify the steps that need to happen to achieve that goal, and then I get on with it. The amount of people. Who cannot get out of their own way and come up with all manner of ridiculous excuses and obstacles. I, I, I honestly don't understand, but that's your goal.
You know what me, [00:09:00] when people say, I know what I need to do, I just don't do it. What, what I mean, since you know what you need to do. Then why aren't you doing it? Oh, I just can't. What, so you lack the discipline? Yes. I lack the discipline and I've realized I don't lack discipline. That's an interesting observation I've made about myself.
Yeah. Quitting drinking was a really, really difficult thing for me. 'cause I love drinking scratch. Yes it is. But I realized it wasn't serving me, it was giving me anxiety and I don't wanna live with anxiety. Mm. And so I needed to stop drinking and I did it. And that's it. It's done. Yeah. Cold. Like cold Turkey.
Cold coughing. Did like, honestly since November last year. We September now. Done. Mm. Was it even that hard? No, it wasn't. I realize I'm not like other people. I do. I do. Yeah. And that, that is actually probably my biggest strength in business. I'm not the most intelligent, I mean fuck's sake, I count on my fingers.[00:10:00]
There are a lot more intelligent people, but I think the discipline and that ability to keep these promises that I make to myself. So if I say, this is my goal and this is what I need to do, I'll just work backwards and I'll just do it. Yeah. Whereas, yeah, people will, will, I don't know what they do. I can hold space for the fact that discipline is hard for people, but I don't understand when they say I just can't do it, even though I know what it is.
Yeah. I know that I need to eat healthy, but I can't do it. Why? Yeah. You go to the supermarket, you buy the ingredients that you need to buy to make healthy meals, and then that's it. Mm. There's no chocolate in my house 'cause I will eat it.
Stef
Yeah. That need, that goal for them is just not strong enough.
Mia
Do you reckon? Is that what it is?
Stef
I mean, I dunno. 'cause I think in that regard I'm very similar to you.
Mia
Okay, cool.
Stef
Um, yeah. Yeah. And I don't know where it comes from. I just, I know what I want and I go and get it. Mm. I don't do it probably the way that everyone else does it, but I go get it done
Mia
because then, then they feel bad.
[00:11:00] Then they beat themselves up over it because they set a goal and then they didn't achieve it, and then they're like, oh, you let yourself down. Like, I don't put myself through that torture. It's, it's not an option. Yeah. And like, don't get me wrong, there are certain things that like I want, but I realize it's not realistic for me to have them right now because.
I'm a mom of two young kids and I'm a defense partner, and I live a million miles from my family and I've, I've already got other commitments that I go, look, yes, it is a goal for me one day to write a book, but realistically, that's not gonna happen now. That's probably not gonna happen for the next two years, so don't set that as a goal.
That's not a realistic goal right now. Yeah. Anyway.
Stef
There's, there's no, anyway, this, this is, this is great. Goodness. We're only a couple of, uh, questions in, and we, we've got here and I love it.
Mia
Okay, cool.
Stef
I actually probably need you to get you to lie down on the couch on the other side of the room. We can do a proper psych session.
Mia
No, people don't realize this about us, but like you have an uncanny ability. You will call me for a scheduled walking meeting. A walking meeting is, I'm supposed to help [00:12:00] you. And for whatever reason, which she does though, to be fair, you do. Okay. Well that's good to know. Yes, because it always turns into a therapy session for me.
I don't know, you just have a really, I don't know. I feel very comfortable talking to you about literally, I mean, we had a conversation in the Green Room that was like, I don't think I have spoken to my psychologist about. Yeah. Right. So yeah, I think that's your gift.
Stef
Ah, that's so kind. Yeah. Thank you. I, that's a great gift.
It is a great gift. Not to make this about me, but it's actually one of my favorite things to do, and I think that's why I've landed in this sort of position that I'm in, is because I, I genuinely am interested in people you are. Maybe there's a bit of deflection there as well. No, I'm joking. No, no, no. I'm, yeah, genuinely interested in people and like being that person, like I actually wear that with a bit of a badge of honor, so thank you.
Mia
But now this is, this is about my brain, right? As your marketing mentor, I'm like, okay, how are we gonna monetize this? [00:13:00] How are we gonna turn this into something that you can charge for? And I've got an idea that's grown to me. 'cause we started working with you about pre-production. Yes. And like obviously you can help come up with the campaign idea, but even before that, maybe you can start to do some consults, which are AKA shrink sessions where it's like getting to know you and like uncovering the DNA of your brand and your brand story. And then that's step one. And then step two is off those sessions. 1, 2, 3 that you've charged for. Yeah, of course. Then we go into, okay, and now I'm gonna come up with a campaign idea. Now that I've sat with you and we've done a little bit of this Humans of New York. Interviewing. Then I come up with the campaign idea and then we go and make the campaign.
Stef
Yes. Because that's kind of, for me at the moment, is sitting in the discovery call, which is never the 15 minute discoveries call it's meant to be because it turns into a full. Okay. All right. Let's talk about that and our next walking meeting. That'd be great.
Mia
Okay, great.
Stef
Awesome. Mm-hmm. Um, [00:14:00] let's go. We're gonna jump all over the place.
Okay. Let's go. But this is great because I haven't given you any kind of structure, so you don't know if we're jumping around how you, how are you going, how are you sitting in this? Space of not knowing what's to come.
Mia
Look, I'll be honest, coming from Darwin, I still wish the heater was on, but I'm okay.
Stef
Should we get your jacket?
Mia
Yeah, I'll put the jacket over the legs.
Stef
Oh my God, you're hilarious. Meanwhile, I am sweating, but I'm, you know, I'm originally from Tassie, so.
Mia
Okay. I've got my little blanket now. Now we're good. Now we're good.
Stef
That's so funny. Yeah. Um, let's go back to, well, I would like to go back to when we first met and randomly someone was asking me just the other day in dms, how you and I met, and I was like, oh, how do you know me?
And that she's just like, she follows you through me now. And I'm like, oh. Okay, great. But I assume she knew you first, but I started explaining to her how we met and I remember saying to you, you had just given your presentation and it's so different to so [00:15:00] many presentations I've heard. I think anyone who knows me knows I'm not sit in an audience.
With and being lectured at. I was at uni, I was terrible at it. I hated going to lectures. I wanted to be in the tutorials where I could talk and engage. Yeah. Do all that sort of stuff. And I was meant to be working in film, which I was when you're on stage. But I kept stopping to listen 'cause you were just so different to all the others that I had heard.
Not that the others were bad, they just weren't my vibe. I'm like, oh my God, this woman, and I also had no idea who you were to the point that I, I think I got you on camera leading up to the event, just thinking you were just one of the guests. I didn't know that you were one of the expert guest figures.
Probably should have done my research, but anyway, more authentic this way. Anyway, you finished and I was just like, I have to in some way tell this woman that if there's ever an opportunity to work with you, I want to, in whatever capacity, I want to somehow work with you. And I have never done that to anyone.
Do you remember that moment?
Mia
I do. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm so glad that's [00:16:00] like two years later we've collaborated on three campaigns and yeah, like now I consider you one of my closest friends, so I love that for us.
Stef
Same.
Mia
Yeah, yeah. Oh totally. Yeah. Like I'm bringing my kids and my husband over here tomorrow to have dinner and yeah.
I love that. For us.
Stef
It's very cool. Yeah. And then, sorry. And then unfortunately you were quite sick during that time, and
Mia
I think that was my body telling me that I needed to run as far away from that situation vibe as possible. And I didn't listen. That was my body saying, you need to get away from most of these people. But anyway.
Stef
Except me.
Mia
Except for you. Of course.
Stef
You ran towards me. Yeah. Yeah.
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Stef
Actually, I wanna jump back to like becoming really good friends. You've worked in small business, you work with a lot of small business people. You help them however it looks. How do you go with the business side merging or that gray area with the friendship side, because I'm. Great at making new friends and, but then really struggle keeping it separate.
So much of what I do is really getting to know people that I would [00:18:00] do anyway if they weren't paying me, but then I'm like, oh, the, the lines are so blurred, which I'm okay with, but some people sort of say you shouldn't, but I'm kind of like, I, it's kind of just what I do. I don't have any control over that.
How do you feel about that or where do you sit with that?
Mia
Yeah, I'm all in as well. Yeah, I mean, I call everyone in Marketing Circle, sweetheart. I don't know how they feel like that, or Love or Matey or Amiga or whatever. I've completely blurred the lines. I think for me it comes from the fact that I grew up in a family business, so like.
Home and business have always been intertwined for me. I don't know any different, and then actually when I went to corporate, it was gross. Yeah. This idea that you can't be friends with your colleagues on Facebook, and then we would find ways to do it, and even your clients, it was just gross. However, what I will say is that if I need to have a difficult conversation with one of my members, even if we're friends, I'm okay with that because mm.
That's been my lived experience. My dad has had to have difficult conversations with me as someone that worked for his [00:19:00] company as well as being his daughter. Mm. And my dad has had to have difficult conversations with his brother and with his wife, and like, so you and I can have dinner tomorrow night, but I can also send you an email from my campaign Almar address and be like, Hey. Just so you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I mean, I can, I can switch. Yeah. 'cause there is two parallel relationships that are happening, right? There's a personal friendship, but then there's also a business relationship.
Stef
Yeah. You're very good at it.
Mia
Oh, thank you.
Stef
Yeah. I need a lot of work on it. Yeah.
Mia
That's the, so I would caution someone Sure. Go and blur the lines as much as you like. But if you are not someone who can then turn around and say, Hey. You owe me money or I don't actually wanna pay you for that because you didn't deliver on that and you are unable to do that because the lines are blurred.
Then maybe for you, you can't blur the lines. You need to keep your professional relationships solely professional because you are then unable to, you know, I'm able to. Yeah. It's a very good skill. A lot of [00:20:00] experience in, in small business. Yeah. You know, we talk about the fact that lack experience doesn't matter, but it does.
Stef
Of course it matters.
Mia
Of course it does.
Stef
Yeah.
Mia
Yeah.
Stef
You know, it does. It's how you harness that experience. So like experience in, from my point of view, I've had a lot of experience in other industries and other worlds triathlons. Yeah. Yeah. All of that has brought me to this place, and if I just poo-pooed that I wouldn't be here.
Mia
Exactly. Yeah.
Stef
Yeah. How did you get into marketing?
Mia
Okay. Good story. I told you this the day we met. I don't know if you remember.
Stef
Of course I do.
Mia
So I thought I wanted to be a lawyer all of my life because I love arguing and debating. And oratory. Right? Oratory. Oratory. Exactly. Oratory or Oratory. I mispronounced it.
Sorry. Oratory. Yeah. What's that? Oratory speaking. Ah, I've never heard that word. You've never heard that word? No. Okay, cool. And like I grew up watching like those legal dramas, like Boston Legal and like yeah. It was always like this. Barrister who would get up at the end and make this really compelling argument.
That's what I thought I [00:21:00] wanted to do. Right. And also, I've got Greek parents and they didn't really give me much choice. Okay. There was no future in musical theater for me, and I loved musical theater, but that was a, a immediate no. Same with being a writer, that was, what do you mean? Oh, just because that's not what's done.
Stef
Right. Got it.
Mia
My parents didn't finish high school, didn't go to university, fled a dictatorship, migrated to Australia. The tale as old as Greeks in Melbourne. Right, right. 1970s came on a boat. Seven people living in one house. Like that was our, our life. And my parents came here to give me my brother and you know, all of our cousins.
A better life. And as a result came some expectations that we go to university and we study something that's going to make money. And in, in the 1990s when I was growing up, musical theater was not going to make you any money. Writing wasn't gonna make you any money. So my options were law. Mm-hmm. Uh, business.
Engineering, [00:22:00] which wasn't really interesting to me. Yeah, so I Or doctor these, these were my four choices. Right? Yeah. So I thought I wanted to be a lawyer, and then I've got a cousin named Marios and we had a very close relationship. He was a little bit older than me, and he was like, you'd make a terrible lawyer.
I'm like, why do you say that? He's just like, you are a people person and you're also creative. And that's not law at all. What you see on TV with the barristers, that's not your day-to-day solicitor. It's all like statute and precedent and like, oh, your Honor, if you look at the case between so and so and so and so in 1969, it creates a precedent for today's proceedings. It's all just, you know, very detailed focus. Mm-hmm. And I said to him, okay, well if, if it's not law, then. Then what? Mm. And he handed me the Monash University handbook. It was like a Yellow Pages directory, and he threw it in my lap. And he goes, read through [00:23:00] that and tell me what interests you. And I was flicking and I was reading and I was reading the synopsis and I'm like, math, math, come and have a look at this.
Take a look at this. And I pointed to marketing. I'm like, look at this. This is like. Negotiation and business and creativity and art and science, and he, he had this smile on his face. Do you know what I realized? He had the answer all along. Mm-hmm. But he wasn't gonna tell me. He needed me to figure it out for myself.
It was all like, he looked at me and he was like, she got it. She found it.
Stef
It's such a cool story. It is. You have told me this, and I remember my question was like, does he know the impact that he had? By helping you come to that conclusion?
Mia
No, unfortunately, my parents separated and all sorts of stuff, and our relationship has become a bit strained.
Yeah. Since then. Yeah. So, no, I don't think he does.
Stef
Yeah. Let's hope that maybe. Deep, deep down, he knows he's, he can see your success and, and yeah, let's hope that,
Mia
or I should just grow a pair and reach out [00:24:00] to him and be like, Hey, I'm in Melbourne. Do you wanna go for a walk? I guess I'm a little bit fearful of the rejection.
Stef
Mm, yeah. Yeah. That's fair. Mm. When you're ready, maybe.
Mia
Yeah. Yeah. One day. Yeah.
Stef
Yeah. Family stuff, huh?
Mia
Goodness. Good times. Yeah. You've got some great family stories to I love. I really do. I love listening to them. Like your brother and your stepdad and Oh my gosh.
Stef
oh God. If I ever say to you, long story short, sit down, grab a coffee because it's not gonna be short.
Good? Yeah. Okay. So just sidebar, you don't know this about me. So I went to uni and I studied commerce. With a major in marketing. I can't believe we haven't had this conversation. How do I, how did I not know this before now? Oh my God. Because I forgot about it. You forgot that you've got a major in marketing.
Yeah, because I, I hated uni. I just wanted to be off doing my own thing. I only went to uni because [00:25:00] I just thought that, um, you went to uni after college or in Tassie? We had high school. Then 11 and 12 was college and then uni. So I was just like, oh, okay. And I didn't know what I was going to do 'cause my life just revolved around sport.
But I also at that time was like, oh, I can't in in Tazzie especially, there wasn't a whole lot of areas that you could move into in terms of sport as a, as a occupation. And I used to like Murrow's place and I used to think Amanda was a badass. She is. Yeah, she was. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, I'll do advertising.
And then got into it and was like, fucking, I hate, because back then all I thought the advertising was was trying to sell things to people that they don't necessarily want Tur polishing. Yeah. Yeah. And I, but I picked up on it back then and bear with me 'cause I'm coming back to you on this, but it's just all these sort of steep moments.
So I'm like, oh, that's why I thought that. And that makes sense now as I discover a little bit more about myself. [00:26:00] And one of my core values is justice. Mm-hmm. Which leads me back to you. 'cause a big part of your ethics in marketing and, and how you deliver to a wider audience, to me seems to be centered around justice.
Is that fair?
Mia
100%. Yeah. Yeah.
Stef
Where do you think that comes from?
Mia
I, maybe, probably my dad. Mm-hmm. So. Like we all know small business is hard, right? And sometimes we can make it even harder by being really values focused and like there are shortcuts that you can take in business to make things a little bit easier.
But my dad never took them. So my dad and my whole family, when they first came to Australia, they started working in food manufacturing. They started making dips and uh, dips are a dairy product. And dairy products go off. Mm-hmm. And one, when you sell them into Coles and Woolworths, that [00:27:00] supply chain period is, can be weeks from the time that you make the product to it landing into Woolworths to go into the fridge.
It can be a couple of weeks and that product can spoil. And so the easy solution is just to add a preservative to the product to keep it the same color and flavor. And my dad flatly, refused. He's like, we are not adding a preservative to this product. This is a fresh, natural, healthy product. We are just gonna have to work a little bit harder to improve our supply chain and get it into the Woolworth stores within seven days.
Use natural preservatives like lemon juice, garlic vinegar, look at our cooking methods, can we cook it at a slightly higher temperature to make it a little bit more shelf stable? And he was just really relentless in like. Yes, there are shortcuts, but I don't wanna take them because it compromises my values.
And so I think I learned it from him where like, yeah, of course marketing would be so easy if you could just prey on people's [00:28:00] insecurities, their fears. You were happy to lie to them. You were happy to deceive them. You were happy to make them feel shame, dependency on you. Be easy to sell any product. Mm, right.
I believe in making it so hard that you, I believe in doing it so much harder by being honest and transparent and giving people time to make a decision and to really consider whether it's the right decision for them. And having flexible contracts and letting people leave your membership whenever they wanna leave, and then you have to work harder to keep them there.
Stef
Mm. And and a similar question to about how you got into marketing. Does your dad know? That, that he's had that kind of influence on you?
Mia
Yeah, he does. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he does.
Stef
Because he just sees it and is like, oh, chip off the old block. Or you tell him?
Mia
I think a bit of both. Yeah. Yeah. A bit of both.
Stef
Yeah. Cool, cool.
Mia
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like sometimes he encourages me to [00:29:00] kind of bend the rules a little bit, and then I'm like. But would you have, yeah, he's, oh, probably not. You know? You know, yeah. We have those conversations. That's cool. I think it's so important to tell people when they've had some form of impact or even just doing a good job.
Like I just, and that's another thing I learned from my granddad as well, like it's just, yeah, it's easy to point out the negative shit, but tell people when they're doing something good or, yeah. Oh, 100%. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We need more of that actually. For sure. You're doing a good job. Oh, thank you. I will say especially in husband wife relationships.
Yeah. You know, we're so easy to criticize our partner and, but like when was the last time you turned to your husband and said, Hey, I, I think you handled that situation with our kid really, really well. I'm glad that that was you and not me. Like, we don't do that enough.
Stef
Agreed. Yeah, absolutely. Agreed. Geez, that's a whole other line of we could go down.
Yeah. Um, but I'm gonna, I'm [00:30:00] gonna bring it back 'cause I know that people listen to this podcast, uh, your podcast to learn about marketing and stuff. But my whole thing was like, great. But let's also find out a little bit more about. Me as well.
Mia
That's a really interesting, because I've actually been doing a little bit more personal episodes lately.
Mm-hmm. Not because I've run out of marketing, but because I feel like I might have fatigued the audience. Yeah. With so much marketing advice, like a weekly episode every single week of the year, there's only so much marketing knowledge you can retain and then go and implement. And so I've had feedback where people are like, oh, I've stopped listening to your podcast because I'm still working on the things that you told me two months ago to go and look at.
And I'm like, okay. Yeah, just like in Marketing Circle, we need to have non-training weeks.
Stef
Yes.
Mia
Which is a bit more consolidation. I've decided to have a few more personal or pop culture type episodes. Because if we're being honest and we're looking at it from a commercial perspective, [00:31:00] pop culture podcasts are more popular than business podcasts.
Mm. So like, you know, shameless podcast and all of that, people love that stuff and it's just two people shit talking. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So I think that a fusion of, yeah, definitely. It's called Got Marketing for sure. And there will still be a marketing emphasis and a campaign emphasis, but a bit more talking about life pop culture.
Me as a human being. I think is great.
Stef
Totally. And people learn in different, um, vehicles of communication and you know, like I, if it's funny, if there's some kind of humor involved, that is the best way for me to learn. Yeah. So, yes, and in Marketing Circle, I do need to circle back to quite a lot of the content, but again, I'm better turning up to the live sessions and engaging with other people and interacting. That's a great way for me to learn. I don't know how many times I can go back and rewatch other things. So yeah. Each their own.
Mia
Yeah, there are very [00:32:00] different learning styles, you know? Yes. I'm the, um, a plus student do all my homework, you know, like it. Do the quiz and like Yeah, yeah. Have notebooks full.
But that's not everyone. That's not everyone.
Stef
It is not. And I like to think that I keep you on your toes a little bit.
Mia
100% you do. Yeah. Now you are a huge asset to Marketing Circle.
Stef
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Mia
You know what my, sorry, sorry. I know you've got a question. You cannot, this is going back to your point of you should tell people when they're doing something that you really appreciate. So here's, here's that how Talk about value. We were in a captain seat with Alex O'Neill King, who's a Pilates instructor in Perth. Absolute dead set legend. And she was talking about, we were reviewing her sales page for her group program and all of us in the group, and it was a really small group, I think there was only about six of us.
We all had feedback about her hero image. It was a [00:33:00] really, really busy image. You literally took the image, you cropped it, you edited it, and you sent it to Alex and you're like, he, you can use this if you want. Like, do you know how valuable that is? Do you know how much time someone could have agonized over that?
Like 5, 6, 8 hours trying to fiddle with an image? And then what took you three minutes, five minutes was just like, that's, ah, it was awesome. So awesome. But yes, I do under, I know that she would've gone off going, oh, I've got all this great feedback. How am I gonna action all these points that were all great points.
And I was just like, I can do that for you really quick. Just Just 'cause I've got the skillset. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, oh, that's cool. That's good to know, because quite often I'm in those groups go, oh, I don't know. I don't know all the marketing jargon. I don't know all the things, but I'm sure I can offer something in my own way.
Don't be silly. Of course you can. Yeah. Yeah. But like I would talk about that in a discovery call now. Oh, where I talk about like, okay, [00:34:00] so this is what you get in Marketing Circle, but let me tell you a story about like this captain seat session and how like Steph Hansen just. I'm not guaranteeing that Stef Hanson's gonna edit your Yeah.
Your hero image. I'm just saying that that's the kind of value that we can provide within this circle experience. Yeah. You know, how do you put that into words and Yeah. You know? Yeah. You are welcome then. Yeah. I thank you. Yeah.
Stef
Um, I wanna go back to the justice piece because. Obviously within your own business and marketing, you know, it's all, uh, what's the honest, is it honest market, honest marketing method? Yeah. Like it's, it's your thing, but then you also have this, and again, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's this overwhelming pull or desire to pull up other people or businesses when they are doing the wrong thing ethically. Like it's part, part of your shtick, like it's your thing. There's not many people who can do it because it's scary.
Mm-hmm. To go out [00:35:00] there and call people out on their bullshit. Yeah. Do you actually get scared doing it? Not really, no. It's amazing. No, I wish I had a little bit more of you because I'm actually, there's certain things that I will not allow, but when I am calling people out out, I'm still like, I'm sweating.
I'm turning up to footy meetings with a bunch of blokes who have been a little bit sexist in comments. I will not put up with it, but I'm still turning up to that meeting sweating because I struggle with what people might think of me. And I even started that meeting going, I know you're probably gonna think that I'm making a mountain out of Mole Hill, and I'm just, you know, and I even started with that, whereas I should be like, no, I'm not.
You know what I mean? Okay. So yeah, you don't get scared by it.
Mia
I don't think there's anything more beautiful in this world. More primal than great debate. Like, yeah. Nuanced intellectual debate. Yeah. Like, you know, I tell anyone who will listen, but The West Wing is the best TV show ever made. [00:36:00] It's the dialogue and Aaron Sorkin does dialogue, like nobody writes dialogue and the debate between the characters and I don't run from conflict.
Some people are allergic to conflict. They will refund a customer just to avoid any sort of conflict. I, I think I run towards conflict because I believe that our ideas get better through opposition. Yeah. Yeah. There's a really cool quote that I cannot take credit for. Actually, Beck Rainer from Military wife Life first shared it and she said Critics are actually the biggest optimists. Because critics look at something and say, we can do better. So good. Such a light bulb. I don't, I'm not usually someone that quotes, like, I don't, I don't even know who wrote that and I, I don't quote, I don't quote Brene Brown and Simon Sinek and all that sort of stuff, but I was like, holy shit. You know, we were talking earlier about learning yourself. 00:37:00] That's me. I've looked at the state of marketing. I've looked at the state of online business and went, surely we can fucking do better than this. Yeah, right. Surely. And so for me, it comes from a place of awareness. Like if I tell you this is false scarcity, that's the tactic. Mm. Or invented authority.
Someone giving themselves a cool title or buying themselves an award. Mm. You can start to spot that. Because I've given it a name and I've, I've highlighted that this is a tactic, and then people are a little bit more skeptical and it helps them do a bit more due diligence. And then less people get catfished.
Yeah. Less people invest in someone who has duped them into working with them, and people are starting to become a little bit more skeptical because they're starting to see some of these tactics in action. So it's coming from a place of, I want you to be aware that people are doing this. I'm not saying don't invest with that person.
I'm just saying like, do a little bit more research because they are trying [00:38:00] to override your judgment and I want you to come back and, and actually use good judgment. And if after you've looked into this, you still wanna invest with that person, then absolutely. That's great. You're probably gonna then be more invested in that purchase because you did your homework and now you're all in.
Stef
Yeah. Yeah. It's very cool. I love it. I think justice is such a great value to like to be one of your core values. Forget marketing, forget small business, forget campaigns. Is this what you would be like at a dinner party, dinner table? You like you. Happy to call out someone who's maybe saying something offensive.
Are you happy to, you are happy to be that person. Somewhat enjoy the healthy debate around it.
Mia
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, Larry David, one of the creators of Seinfeld, he's got a really cool episode in K, your Enthusiasm, where he says, I'm trying to elevate small talk to medium talk, because small talk is the most fucking exhausting.[00:39:00]. Thing ever. When people say that they get social anxiety or they're introverts or they don't do well at parties, often it's because they can't handle small talk. Ah, that's so interesting. Yeah. Whereas if we can go straight to medium talk at a dinner party, I like, honestly, my perfect day. My perfect day, and I've had this many, many times before, so I'm really happy is just like.
A group of friends that you are so comfortable with that they're not gonna judge or cancel you, but you can have healthy debate, good food, good drinks. Honestly, we could be sitting in a gutter. It doesn't matter where you are, wherever. And we just talk for hours about everything and anything. World, politics, society, the environment, business, parenting, interpersonal relationships, marriage, sex, diet, health.
Vaccines, [00:40:00] all of it. And there's like no one's like, oh, I just can't be in a room with you right now. You know? And you're just like, okay, I, hang on. Let me try to understand your position. Are you saying this? And there's that really nuanced debate. And, oh, I'm probably gonna sound really silly saying this, but.
Don't you think? You know, and then you can be really vulnerable in some, in front of someone and and share a thought that's probably not even properly formulated. Yeah, it's my perfect, perfect day.
Stef
I love it. And if someone's doing that back at you, how do you respond to someone saying, have you considered this?
What do you think about this?
Mia
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that. I'm like, yeah, okay. This is not properly formulated, but like, this is where my head's at. Like, am I crazy? Am I like, have I lost my mind? And like, yeah. I, I really love that. Yeah. I really do.
Stef
Yeah. And do you think we've lost the capability to lean into that on a public platform for the fear of being canceled?
Mia
100%. Yeah. Like honestly, I don't think, and as a marketing trainer, [00:41:00] I don't advise people to use social media to work through their positions. Yeah. It's too polarizing. Yeah. Which is why I love spaces like Marketing Circle. Like podcasts? Mm-hmm. Like email marketing, like in-person connections because there's just too many angry people on the internet who will straw man your argument. Are you familiar with that term? No. So there are a few different ways to make an argument. You can steal man the argument, which is what we should be doing, which is you have a position and then. I repeat that position back to you to make sure that I've fully comprehended your position. Mm-hmm. So that I'm not twisting it, and then I can then rebut or debate your position based on confirmation from you that I've properly understood.
It's called steel manning and it's really hard to do, but [00:42:00] when someone does it, it's super effective because. They have first confirmed with you that they have properly understood what it was that you wanted to say. Straw manning's the argument and it's so cheap and it's so when someone misinterprets it deliberately mm-hmm.
What you are saying and pulls a thread that you know like. I don't like apples. So you don't like fruit? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So all fruit is toxic. Yeah. Yes, that's exactly what I said. Yes. Unbelievable. But that's that, that, that's Instagram. Like I, yeah. If I had to describe Instagram, I'm like, cool.
If you want someone to straw man your argument. Go to TikTok, go to Instagram. 'cause that's all it is. I don't like bananas. So all fruit is dangerous to humanity. Like.
Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. People will interpret what they want to believe. Yeah. Like I did a post about Cook Eye. It's sitting at 200,000 views. I started the video by [00:43:00] saying I believe that more fashion brands should be size inclusive. They absolutely should be more fashion brands that size, stock size 18 ever.
Yeah. So many comments calling me like. You know, advocating for size, exclusivity. Yeah. Like, okay. Sure. I mean, how many times can you comment? Did you watch the video?
Stef
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I do remember that. And read through the comments and I mean, we've been discussing this before we even turn the mics on.
A lot of it is a reflection of the person, not anything that you have actually said or done. Yeah. Holding a mirror up to people can be really confronting and I don't know.
Stef
I don't, it's really sad, Steph. I feel like some people are just really angry. They're going through the world really angry, and it's like a really easy dopamine hit for them.
I don't, it might not even be dopamine. It might be another chemical, but being nasty. On a social media comment, gives them like a, a dose of power or control or something that happens in their brain. [00:44:00] Like it's almost like a little bit of a bite of a sugary donut that it gives them because Yeah, they like what?
Or I don't understand why we are getting so many nasty comments. Yeah. On social media. Yeah. The tear down culture. Yeah.
Stef
Yeah. It's just sad. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's really sad. Yeah. What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about you?
What do you think people think about you? That they've completely got wrong.
Do you think, because this is also like kind of the direction I sort of wanted to go with the podcast, like to sort of uncover a little bit more about who Mia is because I think your persona, not persona, 'cause that seems like you're putting on a thing, but your. Your brand or what have you that's out there is call out the bullshit.
You're hard ass. You are this kind of person. But the me that I know I've become friends with is the things that we started the podcast off with is that you are generous. You are giving your, you are kind, you are. You actually give a shit, not just give a shit because it looks. Cool for your brand. Like that's kind of what I was wanted to get outta this [00:45:00] podcast.
Mia
Yeah. So just the nature of content, right? Mm-hmm. If you post negative content like shade throwing content Yeah. Opinionated, you know, that kind of content, it's going to get viewed much more then kind. Hey, here's a brand that I love. These are four small businesses that inspire. Like I do all of that. Mm.
But no one sees it. Yeah. 'cause it's, that's not what the algorithms. Like rage bait is like pretty much what algorithms love. So I'm very mindful of that. And actually some of my dear friends have brought that to my attention and have said, Hey, you are a nice person, but your public persona, if you can continue down this route, route, route, it depends on where you are in the world, I guess. Exactly, yes. Could be perceived as a bit of a mean girl. Your negative content just gets viewed so much more. And like, do you want to be seen as the person that's always negative when actually you are not? Mm. And [00:46:00] so that's probably the most misunderstood thing about me is that I'm a mean girl where I, I don't think I am.
And I have definitely pulled that back this year. Right. And I'm definitely getting a lot less of those comments about being a mean girl. And, uh, so yeah, that's probably the most misunderstood thing. What I will say is that I got off track a little bit and I started calling out individual organizations like Osmond Preneur, and I'm, now I'm back on track, which is that I will call out crap marketing, not crap marketers, because that gives people an opportunity to create better marketing.
Mm. Do you know what I mean? Like, then there's a road to redemption. Is that like, no, no, we are just talking about bad marketing, which means that you can improve your marketing. It's not that you are a bad person, it's just that you are, you've fallen prey to some dodgy marketing practices, and it's probably not even your fault.
It's probably because you listened to too much Alex Homo. Right. And you were influenced by those kind of marketers. Yeah. [00:47:00] And so yeah, that has been a clear delineation for me. Throw as much shade as you want to the dodgy marketing, but leave the marketers out of it. Yeah. And by marketers I mean specific brands.
Stef
Yeah. Yeah. And, and that just from a parenting point of view or a friendship point of view, calling out the behavior, saying the behavior was. Bad or whatever, as opposed to the child is bad. Yeah. But is like a really good way to try and tackle any kind of conversation.
Mia
Exactly. And um, I feel like I'm in a position to throw the shade because I'm not an expert at many, many things, but I am a legitimate marketing expert.
This has 22 years. This has been my one and only career. I have all the degrees. I have all the certificates, I have all the, uh, like it's coming really from a position of expertise. I'm not gonna sit there and lecture anyone about politics or the environment or whatever. But, so this feels like something I can, uh, debate from a really strong position.
But what keeps me going is the amount of [00:48:00] people that have reached out to me have said, I'm so glad. That I found you because I was gonna invest in this $50,000 Mastermind. My intuition told me no, but I was going to override it because I had received seven relentless emails from people like saying, last chance.
But I could hear your voice in my head saying, slow down, do my due diligence, and then you wouldn't believe it. I figured out that this and then this, and then my friend had had a bad experience and you saved me a lot of money. Mia. You saved me a lot of grief. You saved me a lot of pain. I'm like. I just have to keep going then, right?
Stef
Yeah. Is that the best kind of feedback you can receive?
Mia
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or people saying, you've inspired me to run a campaign. Oh my God. Oh, I love it.
Stef
Love it, love it. You can see the grit on her face. You inspired me to run a campaign. Yes.
Mia
Yeah. It's my favorite. Amazing.
Stef
Yeah. Okay, we're gonna round this out.
Otherwise, obviously we're gonna be, you enjoyed it,
Mia
so good. I love this. We can definitely do it again and we'll a hundred [00:49:00] percent do this then.
Stef
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, great. Well, let's round out this one. What's the most Mia thing about Mia in your opinion?
Mia
Almost Mia thing about Mia, I'm such a Greek mom at my core.
Yeah. You come to my house, you'll be fed and yeah, food is my love language. Very nurturing, very caregiving. And I, I, I hope we're bringing that to the messaging for Ripple Festival that you'll be really, really taken care of. That's very important to me, but that's how I approach business. I don't think I could ever run a big business with thousands of customers because I wouldn't be able to give the nurturing.
That I do. So yeah.
Stef
it it, that's definitely the most bad thing about Mia and I can confirm it. It comes across and I want more people to experience that side of MIA as well. 'cause it's pretty special.
Mia
Aw, part of you. Yeah. Thanks Steph.
Stef
Well folks, would you like to wrap up your own? No, I mean podcast or would you like me to?
Thanks for, thanks for giving me the reins. I understand that. I don't like to say control [00:50:00] freak 'cause that's like a funny throwaway line. You, you are just very around business and stuff. You, you are very structured. And I appreciate that. I'm not, and I really appreciate the fact that you, you, you literally handed over the reins.
You didn't know what today was gonna be about, and you walked into basically a podcast studio going, what the fuck are we actually talking about?
Mia
There's two cameras, like, no, there's three. Three, there's three cameras.
Stef
Yep. Three cameras, two lights.
Stef
I haven't got this second microphone out for a long time, so it makes me feel good.
Mia
So thank you. It's well done. Thank you step. It was really good. I'm gonna buy you lunch to say thank you for, for organizing this and planning it. It was really nice to be taken care of and to have someone else be like, Hey, we're gonna just, I'm gonna take care of this. I'm just gonna handle it. It was really good.
Stef
Great. I won't cook for you, but I will record a podcast for you. Awesome. That's a wrap. Done. Is that all right?
Mia
That was fantastic. Thank you. Kyra's gonna love it.
Outro
I've started a substack as the ideal companion to the podcast. It's packed with extra [00:51:00] insights, visuals, and nuggets that didn't make it into the episodes.
Plus, you can revisit past editions anytime. If you want more or just prefer to read, you'll love it. Plus, it's a place for us to connect. Want the backstage pass to gut marketing. Subscribe [email protected]. Thank you. You listened right up until the end, so why not hit that subscribe button and keep the good marketing rolling.
Podcast reviews are like warm hugs and they're also the best way to support a small business. You can connect with me, Mia FileMan on Instagram or LinkedIn, and feel free to send me a message. I'm super friendly.
