Mia Fileman 0:05
This is Got Marketing? – a fud-free, fluff-free, no-nonsense podcast for marketers looking to work smarter.
I’m your host, Mia Fileman – a marketing strategist with over two decades of experience, and an entrepreneur.
I’m tired of marketers telling you what you want to hear. Instead, I tell you what you need to hear. During the show, I chat with creatives and strategists about all the aspects of marketing, but especially marketing campaigns. Unpacking and dissecting marketing campaigns is what I do for fun.
Got Marketing? is brought to you by Campaign Del Mar – the marketing education platform where marketers and entrepreneurs go to upskill.
Let’s dive in, shall we?
You often adopt an anti-marketing approach to your videos. I’m a huge fan of this tactic, but I do struggle to explain anti-marketing or define it. Do you want to have a crack?
Jonathan Steedman 1:11
It’s kind of breaking the fourth wall of marketing. I guess it’s turning the camera back on marketing itself – honest marketing. I actually wasn’t familiar with that term until we connected. Yes, I like it. It’s a good one. That’s kind of how I would define it, I think.
Mia Fileman 1:32
Yes, self-deprecating, transparent, the opposite, kind of reverse of marketing. Yes, tough.
Jonathan Steedman 1:45
Yes, I think being open and honest with your intentions as well sometimes. I think we’re constantly getting sold to and have become a bit wise to it. Rather than trying to get craftier and craftier about your sales, which I’m not smart enough to do that, so I decided to be open and honest about who we are. Obviously, in my scenario, we’d love for you to book in.
Maybe for someone else, “Hey! We’d love to sell you this thing. Here’s what we’re about. Let us know if we can help.” Rather than a wonderfully crafted ad campaign which I wish I could do with a funnel and all of those other words I don’t really understand. I’m sure that system works really well, but it’s too big for my tiny brain.
Mia Fileman 2:30
Hardly.
Why do you think anti-marketing campaigns work so well?
Jonathan Steedman 2:35
I think you build trust right off the bat. Everyone already knows what’s going on. They know that it is marketing. You’re almost not even trying to sell something. It’s almost the opposite.
I think it’s like, “Hey! We’ve got this cool thing. We’re here if you want us,” and that is quite different to getting retargeted five times on Facebook by “buy, buy, buy!” I think it’s a little bit less aggressive.
It provides a bit more space for the lead – if we use that terminology – to come across you, get to know you in their own time and in their own space, follow your content, understand your voice, and then they feel like, “Ah! I’m going to decide to purchase!” rather than “I feel like I got manoeuvred to purchasing.”
I think it can feel and often is a lot more organic.
Mia Fileman 3:30
So good. Very true.
The reasons why I love it so much is that it’s sticky. In your case, it uses that contrarian take. You throw a lot of shade on other nutritionists, but you never name and shame. You talk about them as a group, but you never single anyone out.
Jonathan Steedman 3:50
You shoot the message – not the messenger. That’s what I try to do.
Mia Fileman 3:55
I love that. I have the same.
In my anti-marketing video, I say, “Say no to crap marketing.” I don’t say, “Say no to crap marketers.” It’s the marketing. I want your marketing to be better. The marketer can be taught to create better marketing.
Jonathan Steedman 4:15
Yes, and it’s easy to fall into that trap of attacking a person, but I don’t think it can be fun. It’s not positive. It’s not good. It’s better to go, “Look, this is the message, and this is the thing that’s not good enough. Let’s attack that.”
Mia Fileman 4:30
What’s really great about that is that it lets the audience decide where you are really going, “Hey! It’s this or that. Choose.” You are really making it very clear for them about what their choices are and providing a very clear set of options and choices for them.
That compare and contrast – as you said – creates that path in words for the lead or the user should they wish to take it. That’s really what marketing is. It’s getting all the stuff out of the way and clearing that path so that they can progress through the customer journey or the marketing funnel – whatever terminology you like to use – in order to solve the problem or meet the need that they have. It makes it really simple. Like, “Here are your two choices.”
I think it’s a really clever marketing approach because it doesn’t beat around the bush. It’s like, “Here it is. Compare the pair.”
Jonathan Steedman 5:30
Take it or leave it.
Mia Fileman 5:33
Totally.
All right. What else is in your marketing mix? You mentioned branding. Obviously, we have the videos. You have videos that are for brand awareness, but then you also have videos for the onboarding process. What else forms part of your marketing mix?
Jonathan Steedman 5:53
I have a podcast which goes up supposedly fortnightly but definitely did not hold me to that. I’m doing okay. I think I’m averaging every three weeks. Again, that’s just information. It’s not specifically designed as a selling point.
Again, it’s that positioning. That’s probably one of my favourite things to do at the moment. It’s a bloody labour of love. They’re a lot of work, aren’t they? But it’s great. I really enjoy that.
I’ve got blogs which I guess still falls back under website.
I do have an email list which is very, very neglected, and I do apologise for that email list. It is on my list of things to kick off. I think you may have even mentioned it before, but I am a little bit nervous about social media not being mine whereas the website is mine and the email list is mine, so making sure I’m also growing that.
Yes, that would be the main mix from an overt marketing perspective. Lots of bright colours. And then, there’s refer and nurturing and a lot of extra stuff, but probably the main pillars would be social media – well, not even social media – just specifically Instagram, a website, and podcast.
Mia Fileman 7:05
Yes, I signed up for your email list, and I haven’t received an email.
Jonathan Steedman 7:10
Well, look, I could be spamming you a few times per day. It’s not that at least, right? I know. I’m sorry.
Mia Fileman 7:20
I know I’m not here to teach you marketing.
Jonathan Steedman 7:24
Please do.
Mia Fileman 7:25
But, if I could, email marketing has delivered the best return on investment for ten years in a row for marketing. It’s honestly where I make most of my money.
Especially for you, because your content is so good, you could be repurposing your blogs and your podcast for your emails. It’s such low-hanging fruit, dude.
Jonathan Steedman 7:47
You can’t see it, but there’s a whiteboard here. I’m in my home office. There’s a whiteboard here, and one of the things is email marketing. It’s going to be called Ala Carte because it’s going to be set out like a menu. You’ll have an entrée, a main, and a dessert. It is not just a whim or a fancy. It’s coming along with everything else.
Mia Fileman 8:08
Well, when you’re a solopreneur, a marketing team of one, and also the business development manager, and also the (8:15 unclear) and all of that, then strategy is about choices. It’s just as much about what you decide you don’t do as what you do do.
I feel like you’ve gone and invested definitely in the right places up until now which is really striking memorable branding. The podcast is great because it’s longform content. For your industry, you can’t communicate the details about good nutrition in a micro moment that social media allows.
That podcast allows you to literally get into the ears of your potential customers and explore a topic in more depth and in more detail. That’s really important because this is not a small purchase decision about choosing to work with a nutritionist.
I definitely think that you’ve made the right choices, but if there was a next thing on the list, I would say take that email marketing and put it all the way to the top.
Jonathan Steedman 9:15
Yes, I have invested in something else recently which I probably should not, and I might pivot and focus on the email marketing instead. There you go. That’s my takeaway from today.
Mia Fileman 9:26
Well, you have to tell us what that is now.
Jonathan Steedman 9:28
Facebook Ads. I was going down that rabbit hole. That’s one channel that I have started investigating a little, but I hate it, so maybe I’ll do email marketing instead.
Mia Fileman 9:38
Are you doing it yourself – the Facebook Ads?
Jonathan Steedman 9:41
For now, yes – building a script and A/B testing and doing all of that - until I’m at a point where I’m comfortable definitely handing it off to someone else.
Mia Fileman 9:52
Yes, I think Facebook Ads manager is the lowest form of misery.
Jonathan Steedman 9:57
It’s garbage. Anyway, my blood pressure is already rising.
Mia Fileman 10:05
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Why Instagram? Why did you choose Instagram as your primary social media channel? Looking at your content which is very video-first, you could be on TikTok, you could be on YouTube, and even LinkedIn for you – going after professionals who sit at their desk all day and have terrible diets. Why Instagram?
Jonathan Steedman 11:08
I got bullied into it by a friend of mine who is really into social media. Well, not really into it. She runs a social media marketing agency. Five or six years ago, she was like, “Why are you not on Instagram?” I was like, “I don’t want to post.” That’s when it was still just pictures of food, really. Anyhow, I got onto it and that was the thing.
I get obsessed with stuff. Having multiple channels scares me a little. No, it doesn’t – it scares me a lot! I do have a TikTok. It has two videos on there that I ripped off from my Instagram. I don’t think I have a YouTube.
If I had endless time, YouTube would be the next place I’d really like to explore because I really enjoy video – putting it together, producing it, doing it, and all that side of things. I do feel like YouTube would be great. Plus, it’s the second-biggest search engine. That would be a good one to be on.
LinkedIn is something that I think I have dismissed as being too stuffy and corporate, but – you’re right – there is a huge market there who need nutrition information.
To actually answer your question, Instagram just happened, and I have stayed there through all of the algorithm changes where they can’t figure out whether they’re TikTok or whether they’re YouTube or whether they’re Tumblr. I don’t even know. I don’t think they know who they want to be. But it’s an app that I know and that I understand, and I have a reasonable following on there now, so that’s a fun place for me to hang out.
But I do need to do email marketing next. Stop trying to tempt me. Come on.
Mia Fileman 12:42
Don’t let me fool you into believing that my question was that you needed to be on more social media channels. It’s actually the opposite.
Jonathan Steedman 12:50
Cool.
Mia Fileman 12:50
I actually think that choosing one primary social media channel and going all in is actually the better strategy. Otherwise, you spread yourself too thin. It was a trick question.
Jonathan Steedman 13:04
Good.
Mia Fileman 13:05
Also, what you said earlier is that 90 percent of your audience are female, right? Females love Instagram. It’s the same with my audience. LinkedIn has more men than women, actually. I think your friend who runs the social media agency might be on to something.
Jonathan Steedman 13:23
She knows what she’s doing.
Mia Fileman 13:24
Yes.
Jonathan Steedman 13:25
It’s not ground-breaking or earth-shattering or anything, but I think a lot of my decisions around marketing and what platform I’m engaged in and the copy that I write, and stuff is just like, “Do I enjoy it? Do I like it?” This sounds so self-serving, but if I read through a caption and I get a nose laugh out of myself, I’m like, “Yes, cool. That’s good to go.”
I don’t enjoy TikTok. I got on there and it hurt my brain. It makes me feel old. I know that that would suck all the creativity out of me. Probably the people that I would resonate with aren’t on there either or aren’t on there in any great capacity.
I feel like, if I keep doing the things that I enjoy – which again is very self-serving – it ends up attracting the people that like what you do because, if you like what you do, other people are going to build it and they will come rather than trying to be everywhere all at once. I think that’s the other reason I’m on Instagram more than anywhere else – just because that’s the app that I like using the most.
Mia Fileman 14:25
But that is so rational because you can’t get blood out of stone.
If you genuinely enjoy something and you’re good at it, then that’s where the energy and the blood will flow. Absolutely.
I say this all the time – don’t let anyone else tell you what you should be doing because it depends – on your skill set, where your strengths lie, your budget, your industry, your niche. All of it should be fit for purpose. None of it can be templated.
I’m a writer. I like writing. The whole video editing and those sleek transitions on reels scare the absolute bejesus out of me whereas I know that I can move people with my words. Shouldn’t I be focusing on channels and platforms - like email marketing, like blogging, like podcasting – where I can use words? Because that is my zone of genius.
I definitely think you should be playing to your strengths.
Jonathan Steedman 15:35
Plus, it’s easier, right? You get better results, and it comes easier.
To circle back to what we were saying right back at the beginning, there’s still going to be parts of sitting down to write a blog, and I’m sure it’s still work when you hit that third paragraph and you can’t find that next thing, or the actual planning of the podcast.
Even if it is your genius, there are still aspects of it that are the dirt – the nitty-gritty – but, overall, it’s going to feel a lot better and come a lot easier if you’re playing to your strengths.
Mia Fileman 16:05
Yes. Look, Jon-o, you’ve said “pivot” and “circle back” in this podcast.
Jonathan Steedman 16:10
I should be on LinkedIn.
Mia Fileman 16:13
If you say I’m precedented, I’m pulling the freaking cord, all right? I’m just telling you that now.
Jonathan Steedman 16:17
Inundated. Fair!
Mia Fileman 16:24
All right. One final question, and it’s a biggie. Sorry.
I think video marketing is unavoidable and inevitable. I feel like – exactly what I said at the beginning of the intro of this podcast – it is what people want, and you’ve got to give people what they want.
We’d love to hear from you about how you go about it. What are the steps in your creative process? Any tips or words of wisdom to help any of the listeners to be able to create their own videos would be awesome.
Jonathan Steedman 16:55
Do you mean equipment tips? Or coming up with the content? Or all of the above?
Mia Fileman 17:02
Yes, all of the above – from storyboarding it to actually filming it to editing it.
Jonathan Steedman 17:10
Yes, always have a note in your phone where you dump ideas – no matter how terrible they sound.
I like to dump an idea and then leave it for a while. I’ll either come up with the idea and film it that day or I will come up with an idea and film it in three months because I’ll have that list of ideas to go back through.
There might be 50 one-liners on there and 48 of them might suck but, if I’m scrolling through, one of them will jump out, and that’s that spark and away you go. Always being on the lookout for that.
A tip that’s worked really, really well for me is to get involved in creativity elsewhere. I read a ton of fiction. I listen to a ton of music. I’ve got a music background. I’ve been creative in those fields. Obviously, I wasn’t very good at them, but that has helped exercise. Creativity is a bit of a muscle.
It also helps to step outside your industry. I think a lot of people try and get ideas from other people’s content in their field. That can work, but it also can just be overwhelming and stifling. A really big tip which has helped me is to engage with creative pursuits or other forms of art outside of what you are doing.
In terms of the actual structure of filming a video, you can do it on your smartphone. There’s no excuse for that. Everything shoots in 4K or 16K or 32K or whatever we’re up to at the moment.
I would definitely invest in a RØDE Lav microphone or the Wireless Go microphone with the Lavalier microphone. I do think sounds is a very overlooked or underappreciated part of a video and it’s pretty easy to get good video if you’ve got a window. Get some natural light diffused through a window. Set your phone up – that’s easy. But sound really elevates that video and distinguishes it.
I think it’s like when people get their eyebrows done. No one notices that you got your eyebrows done until you don’t get your eyebrows done. No one goes, “She’s got great eyebrows!” But if someone doesn’t have good eyebrows, you notice. I think sound is like that in the video. You don’t necessarily go, “This video sounds great!” but if it sounds crap, you know about it.
That’s probably the biggest investment of money into video because I think the Lavalier is about $90.00 and the RØDE Wireless Go – which I would actually super recommend because it means that I’m not plugged into my phone, but it transmits the recording wirelessly – that’s about $300, but the best money I spent for video editing.
I’ve done almost all my videos with that – the actual online videos, we had the whole RØDE shotgun. It was a full thing. But for everything else, that little setup kills everything.
In terms of editing, I use Premiere just because that’s what I’ve used for ages, but that’s massively overkill for what I do. You can snip that up on iMovie which is on every Mac device. That will do almost everything that you need. Unfortunately, there’s really no excuse.
Mia Fileman 20:11
I love that. I’m going to put the links for those two microphones into the show notes.
I have to say that you are the master of visual analogies. I’ve noticed this in your content.
Jonathan Steedman 20:23
Thank you.
Mia Fileman 20:23
You’re so good. I think that this is a really powerful marketing tactic. We could do a whole other podcast episode on this, but the idea of explaining something by using that visual analogy – like the eyebrows one – is awesome. So awesome!
Jonathan Steedman 20:38
Thank you!
I think it comes from dietetics. That’s a big part of it. I have to break down very complex scientific mechanisms and things that people don’t care about, but they still want to get a bit of an understanding of what’s happening, so you do need to be able to simplify things. I find analogies are the easiest way to do that.
Mia Fileman 20:58
That’s so good. Very, very engaging to take something that’s a bit dry and a bit boring.
Jonathan Steedman 21:05
What are you talking about? Nutrition science is extremely exciting. No, it can be dry.
Mia Fileman 21:13
This has been such a pleasure, Jon-o.
Could you let us know about the podcast so that people can go over and listen to that?
Jonathan Steedman 21:20
Totally. It’s called Bite Me. It might be Bite Me Nutrition. I don’t even know if I’ve gotten around to changing it, but if you type in “Bite Me Nutrition” into your podcast player of choice, it will be there. It’s a big pink square. You can’t miss it.
Otherwise, you can also go via the website – www.bitemenutrition.com.au. There’s a Podcast page there with all the show notes and transcriptions. Also, that launches all of your podcast players.
I think you can start at the website, and you can pick your poison.
Mia Fileman 21:49
Amazing. Thank you so much! Such a pleasure!
Jonathan Steedman 21:53
My pleasure! Thank you so much for having me!
Mia Fileman 21:56
Thank you!
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Podcast reviews are like warm hugs. They’re also the best way to support a small business. You can connect with me, Mia Fileman, on Instagram or LinkedIn. Feel free to send me a message! I’m super friendly.
